Kreidler K54/53B 1973

Verslagen van restauraties, het volledig opknappen en opnieuw opbouwen van een Kreidler - Restoring a Kreidler
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#276 Bericht door Sturmovik » 11 mar 2018, 13:12

Hello guys, can I ask how the 67.02.97 Bus is supposed to be large ? Mine is 11mm and for me it is the reason of problems. Even when tandwieldragger nut is tightened, i can move it on the swingarm, and of course, because the kettingspanner is touching the axis edge (See blue line on photo)

Afbeelding

Look like the spacer is not supposed to be 11mm, but more. I have not the beugel for kettingcast. For info, the axis is brand new, old had damaged thread. Not Economy of course ;)

Thanks

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#277 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 11 mar 2018, 13:37

Spacer is 14mm
Bijlagen
5A07DC4A-ED4B-427B-A096-16719CC43D83.jpeg
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#278 Bericht door Flocke » 11 mar 2018, 13:42

Richtig, die Hülse muß 14mm sein, ansonsten vergleiche mal mit den Org.-Teilen:
IMG_4148k.jpg
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IMG_6427bkk.jpg
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IMG_6428bkk.jpg
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#279 Bericht door Sturmovik » 11 mar 2018, 19:42

Hi,

thank you for your precious help. I know understand the problem. My 11mm bus is not a Kreidler, it is a basic tube, in aluminum... "bastelln"...
I never took attention to that problem the few kilometers I rode, but this could be serious !

For the gasvalve I am looking... The "bore" made by the iddle screw will cause the iddle to be too low now...

And what about a welding if it was confide to a profi ? I am not In trust with this idea, on this area of the engine, and subject to vibration at the same time... Crazy ?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#280 Bericht door Caspar » 11 mar 2018, 20:38

This material is hard to weld

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#281 Bericht door Sturmovik » 08 mei 2018, 20:15

Hello Guys,

I apologize for the long absent, the new work, in addition to some health worries (Not major but...) and know the amount of pollen stoped me to work in my old garage.
I had some discussion on facebook page about the problems of my carburator. And you were also right, that it was a lost of money to try a restore of the genuine Bing... I was hoping, and sended the 1/20/59 to Faak Tillmans last month, because he wanna look by his eyes. Result, bore is to worn, even a new gasschuif will not be logical :/ Bad that were is no existing extra size like on some carburator brands...

I read lot of good feedback about a 20mm Mikuni. I was sceptic, specially because of screws on left side, against frame... But they advised me to test this 20-151 Mikuni. The world is small, because on my work, the Mikuni parts dealer is Topham. Topham and facebook guys redirected me to Black Mamba, who I salute at the same time, very nice person, and I finally purchased the adapted Mikuni with buses and nylon parts, choke.. etc

First think I was knowing is that it is not georgous as the old Bing... but If that make my engine working fine, and with a good idle and gas respond like I eard, I will enjoy ! Hop it was a good choice, wanna see when riding.

Black Mamba did a nice custom bus with an integrated o-ring, but the problem is that it get back the whole carburator. On mine blok, impossible to fit, touch carter !
Afbeelding
Afbeelding


Little think, and this is nothing. We sacrified the bus to keep only the thin part, that will be between spruitstuk and carb, like a nylon part on lot of carburators...

Afbeelding
Afbeelding

I will ensure leak free witg some sealant I think, and with that methode, the carburator is now on front, like it was with the Bing...

Just a last worry, will the airbox be enough length... I will see at the time I put engine on frame...

About this one, finished since winter, but as I said, I had not time and energy ton continue. I stocked the blok in cave, free of humidity, full of oil. Wonder to restart the thing when I'll be ok !

By speaking of the engine, I remember two nut I did not tight because I can't find anywhere the correct torque : The M6 for the inlet/Spruitstuk : How much Nm ? 6 ?
The surface is now flat, so I had to be careful not to bend again the aluminum

Whilst, I had some troubles with my "Lusito" Levers... Even If I wondered about Magura, my copies aren't so bad, but they were worn. The plastic insert for M6 screw died, causing the screw to rubb levers. After cleaning and boring, My father did me two tube, like two buses of 6mm interior diameter :

Afbeelding
Afbeelding

I just pressed them, and that save my levers, no more annoying play !
Afbeelding

Other thing, the small 600 hundred kilometers I rode were not ok for the chain. tension was never good, It always moved, and those two exentric were not practice.

I find a better state swingarm to replace me original (Bended on chain tension area) and I saw few time a modification on forum that I liked much ! The welding of two support for real chain tensioner :

Afbeelding

Here is a small paper to test, and I confide that work to father who weld well :)

See you soon, Thanks

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#282 Bericht door Sturmovik » 10 mei 2018, 17:45

Hello Guys,

my father transformed the paper ketten spanner support to a real one :)
Afbeelding
Afbeelding

Only issue we have, to ketting spanner are too short. Not Enough screw thread. Modifying finishing supports to shorten them, or make custom ketten spanner, my father prefer second option :)

Otherwise, the idea to modify the Black Mamba bus worked :) It fit now the blok without touching... but it is not finish :
Afbeelding
Afbeelding

Mikuni is way shorter than the original Bing, so I will have a problem with the junction to airbox !
Afbeelding

Or maybe buying the Black Mamba kelk/trichter if the outer diameter is far from airbox inside diameter, I will ask.
https://www.blackmambapartsshop.com/a-4 ... -vm20-151/

Who ride with the Mikuni ? I cannot remove the float bowl, like gasket is glue !

Thanks, Best regards

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#283 Bericht door Sturmovik » 20 mei 2018, 11:53

Hello Guys,

Can I ask wich "sproeiers" do you use on this Mikuni ? It is just to have an idea for a standard setup. It is delivered with a MKA65 Main Jet and a MKP30 Idle.

I thinked to buy MKA 70.75.80 and 85, but if someone already need for example a 85 or 90, useless I buy under that. For Iddle, I thinked ot try 35 and 40.

I thank you in advance, best regards

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#284 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2018, 12:59

Hello Guys, I hope you're fine.

I was not here since long time, cause i had some health trouble, so the Kreidler Blok waited safe in a dry room since this week-end...

I finally remounted the thing on chassis, and it worked very well !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA4mPAcmdCs&t=62s

I was so Happy this week-end, as a kid... but it did not took me long time do be disgusted : The Crankshaft I mounted with 0.03/04mm axial play this winter, after few minutes of idling runing, and 3 km in my road, in front of house also, I can barely feel radial play on flywheel ! Already.... and you can ear it from up to down, clong clong.
This problem I had not with FAG BO17. Now they are NSK, and I know understand way better why Arnold was saying about mounting them to zero... Carter are expanding with hot, but this radial play is crazy, the ball lane may have a different angle as on the SKF or FAG, because the book says between 0.03 and 0.05mm, and I have perfectly done that...

I trusted Arnold, but in my mind I was also worried by zero play, thinking it will overheat, my bad, i missunderstood, because carter are expanding very quick. It is quite different as all other bikes I already made, and the thing to have BO17, and that the play is choosen buy the user, it get on nerves. This is way I made it between zero and .05, like on my "old" FAG... My Excuses Arnold, I should better listen to you from the begining.

I try to understand this topic, not easy for me the Dutch :

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23348

I also read on german forum that over 0.02mm of axial play, the NSK are causing radial play...

Or wait, is the clearance that is written on Kreidler Books supposed to be obtained by hot motor ? This could be explain my missunderstood, because I made it on a 20°C room, and the 0.03/04mm I reached, it was by hard pulling on crank, otherwise the dial coulnd not detect him ! I also thinked that I did not let enough play in the begining...

After overhauled a second time the engine, I can already reopen it a third time... fuck ! I just hope i did not already damage something this few minutes of run... and the annoying thing is that now, with new nicasil, and the mikuni, she run great, as never !

Can just purchase two new KacoSeals ? I always learned that when you dismantle you have to change, mine are brand new, as I said, overhauled this winter, 3km of test... but for "uitschimmen" again I risk to damage them.

With NSK, how many of you are mounting it to zero play ? This measure is not easy, because it depend on wich force you apply on crank... By fingers I had nothing, but by pulling hard with hand I obtained 0.04mm on MAXIMUM.

Very hard to take a decision becaue everyone is telling otherthing. We speaked with Caspar about this, and thank you again Caspar. Kreidlers have lot of particularities ^^

See you soon, I will take some last measurement tonight to compare... before dismantling. Thanks

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#285 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 25 sep 2018, 17:37

It looks you use too mutch oil in the petrol.

And 0,02 tot 0,03 mm for NSK

Enzo

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#286 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2018, 18:26

Hello Enzo, for the Oil, normal, it smoke because ofthe remaining oil I used for crankshaft and piston mounting, also it was toorich. And in the video I forget to remove the Starter ^^

For Axial, crazy because I mounted with 0.03/0.04... For 0.01 it can cause radial play with NSK ? I will take some last measurement before dismantling everything, and I come back...

You measure play with hard pull on crank or with two fingers ? Because as I said, mine was hard to move the dial indicator, by two finger I had more 0.02 than 0.04... but anyway, problem is hee today. I will remove flywheel to mesure better.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#287 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 25 sep 2018, 18:58

I mounted the primair gear for easy pull and pusch

Enzo

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#288 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2018, 19:54

But you pull hard or gently. Here are some explanation, I tried for english, my bad :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTQCj2o ... e=youtu.be

Puling Gently : 0.02mm
Pulling Hard, 0.03mm So, that is good, and also what I choosed on the overhaul.

Now the problem, it that I find exactly same with radial !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1o7jPn ... e=youtu.be

I don't know the "standard' value for Radial play on BO17, because i did never measured this. On hot engine, you can move flywheel from up to down, but crazy, notfrom front to back... what a joke. When cold, it get back to this values...

So, am I worried for nothing, or this is a problem (my opinion is that this is a problem, I have no radial play on the 125cc Yam)

Damned

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#289 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 25 sep 2018, 19:57

Hard, axial !

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#290 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2018, 20:50

So when hard iv got 0.03mm. My worry is for Radial not axial :/

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#291 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 25 sep 2018, 21:08

Sturmovik schreef:So when hard iv got 0.03mm. My worry is for Radial not axial :/
Than i have NO radial

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#292 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2018, 21:16

So mine should have a default if you say that with same axial you have no radial...

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#293 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 25 sep 2018, 21:22

Sturmovik schreef:So mine should have a default if you say that with same axial you have no radial...
Yes, all 24 Kreidler engines we have done

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#294 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2018, 22:18

So I can set it to zero axial play... I don't think bearing could damage on only 3km of low rpm ride... Mine should be genuine Japan NSK, hope to find the reason on dismantle... I come back on end of week. Thanks

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#295 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2018, 22:49

But what is also the "standard' Radial play ? Your 24 engines have same NSK bearings ?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#296 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 25 sep 2018, 23:52

Sturmovik schreef:But what is also the "standard' Radial play ? Your 24 engines have same NSK bearings ?
I measure only Kreidler his axial so you can read in the Montage Book. Yes i used only the very good NSK bearings.

Enzo

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#297 Bericht door Sturmovik » 27 sep 2018, 21:24

Hello Guys,

I took some patience to make it tonight, otherwise I will never make it...

So before dismantling (again :lol: ) I used to took some last measures. For Gearbox they are those I choosed on overhaul, right. For Crank, Ive got 0.04mm of axial, what I choosed to, but also same play on radial... reason why I will now put it to Zero.... and I remember Arnold saying that, next time I will make it from the begining to zero.

Here are three small videos, I apologize for english, I try to explain what I want but not easy for a Frenchy who don't speak often shakespeare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnJlMVh ... e=youtu.be
For the crank, BO17 are marked with Japan, and purchased to Arnold, they can not be false ones ! Bearing lane are already bit polished but this should be logical, even after only 3 km in front of house... or ?
But the thing it afraid me is that : Rito 12mm was mounted to 0.45mm axial on big end side, now i find 0.55...what the hell increasing to quick ? Maybe two shims were "adjusted" by first motor run ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWL-ryd ... e=youtu.be
Otherthing, Cilinder is also brand new from Powerseal. When they gaved me back, I had some vertical black line, like from a pencil. I think they are from honing machine ore guy who maybe took measures a bit too fast, I havent that on my 125cc they also made last month.
But thing is that I see, on the area of inlet and exhaust poorts, it is already polished, dont see anymore honing 45° lines on those zone, like on top were pistons rings get, already polished.... so fast ? Piston has nothing wrong. I used 1:25 for first start who's much rich I know, only for first start, then it was planned to fo to 1:35 and 1:50.
Gumming from oil ? Bad Nicasil ?

The Koppacking is also not oil tight, already leaking, Kop tightened to 14Nm in correct order (1-4-3-2), and all gasket surfaces have also been rectified... flat now !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb3AzNE ... e=youtu.be
Last thing crazy, it is "durty" in the carter... NO SAND, because my frame have not sand anymore, and I even don't connected the airbox to frame for my first try with the new Mikuni... I will also get with a Twin Air I think. This is no sand, and I also dont feel anything in fingers, maybe residue of the lot of oil I used, or already particles of bearings ? Crazy thing is that left side is clean...

Damned, thise bike is doomed :? I don't know where to search anymore... I dont think i made something wrong. For the crank, I understood the fact that suggested axial play from books is to much for those NSK, that I will correct it to zero, but for the rest, don't know.

Crazy that I have same axial play as radial, 0.04... what is the angle of balls lane ? It could be different from FAG or old SKF Bo17 because If I have radial play with only 0.04 Axial play, what will be on an old indirekt blok ?

Dobt say me the the Nicasil is already getting into dust... the old was 40yers, this is few weeks and 3 km... Fuck

Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding

See you soon

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#298 Bericht door Flocke » 28 sep 2018, 01:34

Ich habe die selbe Feststellung mit den BO17 SLF-Lagern (10 Kugeln) gemacht, Einbauspielvorgabe 3-5/100mm.
Meine Feststellung: Axialspiel = Radialspiel

Axialspiel bei meinem 5,3PS-Motor war 6/100mm, hätte ich nochmal 0,05mm unterlegt, hätte ich 0,01mm gehabt, also schon zu wenig, daher hatte ich es bei 0,06mm gelassen. Früher gab es die Vorgabe von Kreidler bis 10/100 möglich (sh. Bild).
Die Vorgabe stammt zwar noch aus der Eiertank-Zeit, aber galt noch für den 5-Gang-Motor mit 5,2PS.
Deswegen hatte ich mir gesagt, sollten 6/100 noch ok sein, ich denke, man muß es nicht zu kritisch sehen.

Wenn man so im Grenzbereich ist, weil mit den Scheiben kannst Du ja nur in 0,05mm-Schritten ausgleichen, dann könnte man es vielleicht noch mit unterschiedlichen Mittendichtungen von verschiedenen Lieferanten probieren, in der Hoffnung, dass die sich leicht unterscheiden. Vielleicht gibt es auch noch andere Möglichkeiten, ich wüßte jedenfalls nicht, wie Du mit den Passscheiben allein immer auf 0,00mm kommen willst.
Ich hatte mal gehört, man könnte in dem Fall auch einen Lagerinnenring leicht anschleifen. Spräche meiner Meinung nach nichts dagegen, erst Recht nicht, wenn man es relativ genau macht oder noch besser in einer Schleifmaschine.

Ich hatte die 0,06mm bei mir gelassen, und wollte es beobachten, wäre es größer geworden, hätte ich dann immer noch was unterlegen können, auch wenn es dann wieder einiges an Arbeit bedeutet. Andererseits muß man sowas auch mal ausprobieren und damit seine Erfahrungen machen. Bin jetzt gut 4.000km damit gefahren und es hat sich nichts verändert, ich hatte es 2x nachgemessen (bei ca. 2.000 und 4.000km). Das Radialspiel ist leicht fühlbar (hörbar), obwohl es nur ganz minimal ist, ich kann mich erinnern, dass die Motoren früher in den 80er Jahren das meist immer hatten, es war normal.
Jedenfalls sehe ich da kein Problem.

Es ist bedingt durch die Lagergeometrie offensichtlich wirklich so, dass die Werte für axiale und radiale Lagerluft gleich sind, so habe ich es jedenfalls auch herausgemessen.

Wie willst Du auf Lagerspiel 0,00mm kommen, wenn Du nur in 0,05mm-Schritten ausgleichen kannst ?
Jemand, der selbst seine Kurbelwellen presst, könnte da vielleicht an der Kurbelwelle entsprechend nachjustieren.
Aber vielleicht hat ja noch jemand eine gute Idee ...

Andererseits ist es natürlich auch richtig, dass sich das Alugehäuse bei Wärme stark dehnt, von daher kann man die Welle wahrscheinlich auch immer ohne Spiel einbauen, solange sie sich ohne Wellendichtringe noch leicht drehen läßt.

Gruß

Carsten
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#299 Bericht door Caspar » 28 sep 2018, 09:08

Ik ben geen voorstander van 0 mm axiale speling op de krukas.
Met verschillende merken middenpakking kun je vaak nog wel wat corrigeren , om zodoende toch op de gewenste speling uit te komen.

Florian , ik denk dat het vuil in je carter restanten zijn van het overschot aan mengsmeerolie door 1;25 te mengen en door de te grote sproeier .

Rdaiale speling heb ik ook met de SKF Bo17 lagers , dat ligt niet aan NSK.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#300 Bericht door Sturmovik » 02 okt 2018, 19:39

Hallo,

herzlichen bedanken für die zeit die sie für mich nehmen,

Carsten, habe ich auch vielmalls zögern, um die richtige kurbelwelle spiel zu erreichnen. Problem ist das auf internet jedes sagt anders. War auch erstaunt dass alte indirekte blok mit so viel spiel montiert könnten... Vielleicht hätte alte SKF BO17 eien andere lager "murmel" winkel. Mit NSK habe ich gefund dass die radial spiel auf polrad mit hand gefühlbar war, tja hatte hich nur 0.03mm axial spiel montiert... das hätte ich nicht mit die plastic FAG.

Bin ich zufrieden eure erfahrung zu lesen, wenn sie sagen dass sie axial spiel gleich wie radial spiel haben, weil ich hab auch diese ding. Diese weekend habe ich die kurbelwelle noch einmal raus gemacht, und heute habe ich zwischen null un 0.01 für axial spiel. Dass war was Arnold mir früher gesagt, und was ich dumm nicht diese tipp zum anfang respektiert... Mit diese axial spiel könne ich zwischen 0.01 und 0.02mm radial spiel messen mit die Meßuhr... also bei starcken gedrängt auf kurbelwelle ja... also kurios diese BO17...

Da könner wir denken dass normal ist, besonders dass sie ganz neu sind... vielleicht besorgt ich mich für nix... Also mit zero wird es besser, aber ich vermute dass nach die erste start, die kurbelwelle wirde nochmal spiel haben... wir werden sehen, und wenn sie sagen dass früher Florett auch diese symptom hätte, dann muss es normal sein :)

Für lager spiel habe ich die selbe carter dichtung die ich für ubërholung genutzt, weil er ganz neu ist. Es ist die 0.25, und nach einigen 11Nm montage ist er noch 0.25, oder vielleicht 0.24...

Für scheiben ich habe also die "originale", also neu wie original sagen, aber ich habe auch einigen wie diese :

https://www.google.fr/search?q=cale+pel ... 96&bih=668

Ich kenne nicht die deutsche wort für diesem, aber mit eine cutter wähle sie ihre "dicke", diesen sind auf umgefehr 0.06mm skalla. Mit dem habe ich die spie von nul/0.01 erreicht :)

Gut idee die lager schleifen, dass kann auch vielleicht prachtiger sein, muss man nun gut messen, und um zu sagen, mich habe doch viel viel zeit genehmt, um die ziel sur erreichen... hoffe dass es viel viel kilometern leben wird !

Und meine entschuldigung für sprache, ich nutz nicht oftmals Deutsch.

Caspar, what could be the translate for "vorstander" please ?
You could right for my 1:25, because i did not feel any particle or something, so must only be not burned oil your right :)

We already speacked a lot about this mix, but i am always wondering (even if oil quality is much better) how a engine that as been designed for 1:25 could run with only 1:50 ? Right that we haven't bronze bus for piston or conrod, but is really 1:50 enough for BO17 and rod ? I am not wooried for piston because lot of 2 strokes are running with less, but we have to think that carters are not bored like on much bike for bringing oil behind BO17. They only received from "front" if i can say that. No bad experiances with 1:50 also ?

Last sentence, you say that you have radial play too ?
I will bring a visite to my friend to take a look on is swiss RS, i never seen that before, but other bikes have also NOT conical bearings like BO17...

Nobody is wooried about the cilinder ? I speaked with a guy saying it was a surt of "gumming" caused by new piston rings, saying i am worried for nothing.

Are those 45° honing stripes already gone on yours ?

Thanks for all

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