Kreidler K54/53B 1973

[mvl]

By a KTT and have it tuned for the same price as Powerseal

[Ronvanderstelt]

Heb dit onderwerp inmiddels helemaal doorgelezen en dan denk ik bij mezelf waar gaat dit over?
Een blok wat altijd goed gefunctioneerd heeft en na revisie deze problemen heeft wat is daar mis mee?
Ik ben natuurlijk op dit moment maar een leek op dit gebied maar in mijn jonge jaren werd bij een blok tijdens revisie natuurlijk ook alles uitgeshimd.
De krukas werd na plaatsing van een nieuw bigend uitgelijnd (uitgebalanceerd).
Cilinder er weer op en klaar voor nieuwe kilometers.
In dit geval is de cilinder ook voorzien van nieuwe wand,wat naar mijn mening niets heeft te maken met het pas vlak van de cilindervoet.
Ik vraag me soms wel eens af als ik sommige onderwerpen hier lees of men het allemaal niet te strak wil hebben.
Ik zie hier namelijk ook discussies ontstaan over een naaldlager .
De ontstane schade die Ik hier zie kan volgens mij alleen ont staan door de volgende oorzaken (ervan uitgaande dat de gepaarde carters goed zijn)
Krukas niet goed uitgelijnd,nieuwe bigend krom,zuigerpassing te strak,slotspeling zuigerveren te klein.
Als Ik het mis heb hoor ik het graag maar ik ga er niet van uit dat je tegenwoordig een hoogleraar ,een draaibank,een cncmachine en aangepaste lagers nodig hebt om dit probleem op te lossen.

[MichelVH]

Ron, nieuw spul heb je vaak meer geklooi aan als gebruikt spul. Afgetaaide brommertjes lopen altijd net ff wat harder is mijn ervaring...

Ikzelf zou lekker rijden en na een paar duizend kilometer eens kijken of het allemaal zo erg is. Mijne loopt soms na een nieuwe uitlaat of carbu ook helemaal ruk, maar ach ja moet toch naar school. Na een weekje of 2 is t vanzelf vaak weg. Moet allemaal even stevig inlopen.

[Enzo-tvdzijden]

Ron, nieuw spul heb je vaak meer geklooi aan als gebruikt spul. Afgetaaide brommertjes lopen altijd net ff wat harder is mijn ervaring...

Ikzelf zou lekker rijden en na een paar duizend kilometer eens kijken of het allemaal zo erg is. Mijne loopt soms na een nieuwe uitlaat of carbu ook helemaal ruk, maar ach ja moet toch naar school. Na een weekje of 2 is t vanzelf vaak weg. Moet allemaal even stevig inlopen.

mooi lopen is voor velen belangrijker dan harder lopen

Enzo

[Ronvanderstelt]

Ron, nieuw spul heb je vaak meer geklooi aan als gebruikt spul. Afgetaaide brommertjes lopen altijd net ff wat harder is mijn ervaring...

Ikzelf zou lekker rijden en na een paar duizend kilometer eens kijken of het allemaal zo erg is. Mijne loopt soms na een nieuwe uitlaat of carbu ook helemaal ruk, maar ach ja moet toch naar school. Na een weekje of 2 is t vanzelf vaak weg. Moet allemaal even stevig inlopen.

Ben ik het wel enigszins mee eens maar er stukgelopen naaldlager moet toch niet kunnen na zo weinig km,s

[de specialist]

Beste Ron.

Ik wil even reageren op jou veronderstellingen.
Je mag er nooit van uitgaan dat een cilinder boring na het
plaatsen van een nieuwe wand zuiver haaks staat op de cilindervoet.
Ik controleer altijd de cilinders hierop.
De grootste afwijking die ik gehad heb was 0,12 mm
maar gemiddeld zit het op 0,05 tot 0,075 mm
Ik hoef jou dan niet te vertellen wat er gebeurt,
over een cilinder lengte van 68 mm.
Alles gaat liggen wringen.
Het pistonlager die er in zat was 14,5 mm breed
en dat is prima voor een meteor zuiger.
Waarom zou dat nu stuk zijn gegaan.
De krukas heb ik voorzien van een nieuwe 12 mm brede Rito
drijfstangset met zilverkooilager.
Drijfstang was helemaal recht.
Krukas is daarvoor aangepast en voorzien van warmte ringen.
De krukas stond helemaal o,o mm uitgeklokt.
Florian ( sturmovik ) heeft dat nog nagekeken en hij kwam op 0,01 mm.
Florian heeft de motor zelf in elkaar gezet, weet niet waar het eventueel fout is gegaan
want hij doet ook andere motorfietsen, en is beslist geen dom iemand.
Ik ben benieuwd wat er allemaal tevoorschijn komt als hij bij wie dan ook de boel laat maken.

Mvgr Arnold

[Ronvanderstelt]

Beste Ron.

Ik wil even reageren op jou veronderstellingen.
Je mag er nooit van uitgaan dat een cilinder boring na het
plaatsen van een nieuwe wand zuiver haaks staat op de cilindervoet.
Ik controleer altijd de cilinders hierop.
De grootste afwijking die ik gehad heb was 0,12 mm
maar gemiddeld zit het op 0,05 tot 0,075 mm
Ik hoef jou dan niet te vertellen wat er gebeurt,
over een cilinder lengte van 68 mm.
Alles gaat liggen wringen.
Het pistonlager die er in zat was 14,5 mm breed
en dat is prima voor een meteor zuiger.
Waarom zou dat nu stuk zijn gegaan.
De krukas heb ik voorzien van een nieuwe 12 mm brede Rito
drijfstangset met zilverkooilager.
Drijfstang was helemaal recht.
Krukas is daarvoor aangepast en voorzien van warmte ringen.
De krukas stond helemaal o,o mm uitgeklokt.
Florian ( sturmovik ) heeft dat nog nagekeken en hij kwam op 0,01 mm.
Florian heeft de motor zelf in elkaar gezet, weet niet waar het eventueel fout is gegaan
want hij doet ook andere motorfietsen, en is beslist geen dom iemand.
Ik ben benieuwd wat er allemaal tevoorschijn komt als hij bij wie dan ook de boel laat maken.

Mvgr Arnold

Ok Arnold ik ben blij dat je reageert, hier leer ik alleen maar van.
Waardoor ontstaat het probleem met de cilinder dan?
Komt dat door het honen of ontstaat dat tijdens het sealen

[Enzo-tvdzijden]

Sealen is het chemische process om de harde laag op te brengen. Honen is om het op maat te maken.

Enzo

[Ronvanderstelt]

Sealen is het chemische process om de harde laag op te brengen. Honen is om het op maat te maken.
Q
Enzo

dat begrijp ik enzo maar ontstaat de afwijking in de boring t.o.v. de cilndervoet tijdens het sealen of tijdens het honen(wat trouwens wel erg slordig zou zijn).
Groeten, ron

[Enzo-tvdzijden]

Sealen is het chemische process om de harde laag op te brengen. Honen is om het op maat te maken.
Q
Enzo

dat begrijp ik enzo maar ontstaat de afwijking in de boring t.o.v. de cilndervoet tijdens het sealen of tijdens het honen(wat trouwens wel erg slordig zou zijn).
Groeten, ron

Het sealen heb je niet echt in de hand. Dikker als je wil en dan op maat (dunner) maken.

Enzo

[Ronvanderstelt]

Sealen is het chemische process om de harde laag op te brengen. Honen is om het op maat te maken.
Q
Enzo

dat begrijp ik enzo maar ontstaat de afwijking in de boring t.o.v. de cilndervoet tijdens het sealen of tijdens het honen(wat trouwens wel erg slordig zou zijn).
Groeten, ron

Het sealen heb je niet echt in de hand. Dikker als je wil en dan op maat (dunner) maken.

Enzo

Begrijp ik ook helemaal enzo en ik begrijp ook dat het honen onder de exacte hoek van 90 graden t.o.v. de cilindervoet dient te gebeuren.

Ik weet ook dat er hoonapparaten zijn voor in een boormachine maar die gebruik je meestal om in een cilinder kleine oneffenheden weg te werken.
Ik neem aan dat wanneer een alu cilinder opnieuw geseald is deze niet uit de hand gehoond wordt maar wordt ingespannen.
Of heb ik het helemaal mis?

[Flocke]

dat begrijp ik enzo maar ontstaat de afwijking in de boring t.o.v. de cilndervoet tijdens het sealen of tijdens het honen(wat trouwens wel erg slordig zou zijn).
Groeten, ron

Het sealen heb je niet echt in de hand. Dikker als je wil en dan op maat (dunner) maken.

Enzo

Begrijp ik ook helemaal enzo en ik begrijp ook dat het honen onder de exacte hoek van 90 graden t.o.v. de cilindervoet dient te gebeuren.

Ik weet ook dat er hoonapparaten zijn voor in een boormachine maar die gebruik je meestal om in een cilinder kleine oneffenheden weg te werken.
Ik neem aan dat wanneer een alu cilinder opnieuw geseald is deze niet uit de hand gehoond wordt maar wordt ingespannen.
Of heb ik het helemaal mis?

Hallo Ron,

da stimme ich Dir zu. Die Abweichung kann ja eigentlich nur beim Honen entstehen. Vor dem Beschichten werden die Zylinder, soweit ich weiß, aber auch noch gebohrt, da könnten solche Fehler natürlich auch schon entstehen.
Und ich bin auch Deiner Meinung, dass das eigentlich nicht passieren dürfte, aber mit solchen Abweichungen und Qualitätseinbußen muß man wohl immer rechnen, leider.

Bei einem maschinengeführten Honprozess (Zylinder fest auf einem Werktisch und Honahle durch Maschine geführt) sollte das eigentlich nicht passieren, es sei denn, die Maschine ist verschlissen oder schlecht eingestellt.
Vielfach werden diese kleinen Zylinder aber auch wohl mit der Hand geführt, die Honahle steht dann fest und dreht sich nur, bei der Vorgehensweise könnte ich mir vorstellen, dass so eine Abweichung eher auftreten könnte.

Schau mal hier, ab Minute 16:30, als Führung hat er neben der Honahle noch eine Stange.


Gruß

Carsten

[Ronvanderstelt]

Heel mooi filmpje carsten
Nu begrijp ik waarom het fout kan gaan.

[Maarten]

Carsten, ik heb nog wat extra uitleg gemaakt voor het plaatsen van een Youtube filmpje.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=47597

[Flocke]

OK, danke für den Tipp, Maarten.

Ich werde es mir anschauen und beim nächsten Mal berücksichtigen.

Gruß

Carsten

[Sturmovik]

Hello Guys,

Thank you for your support and the interest you are giving to my Kreidler. In this tumultuous engine overhauls, I can say that I have the luck to find passionated guys that are helping me. Arnold, Wietse, Claus, Carsten, Michel, Enzo and sure I forget some of them !

Carsten, this red Hone machine, the Suunen, I had exactly the same when was working in the apprentice : What I was saying about this few weeks ago, is that if your bore is not perpendicular to foot, even with a good Hone, it will "guide" on a bad bore. In comparison, on a cast iron sleeve "driling", the sleeve or the cast iron cilinder, is maintained by his foot gasket surface to the machine "marble", avoiding an allignement problem.... With my Nikasil, the cilinder was made on a checmical bath, and honed to the wanted size... and they sey they never control foot surface, so...

Carsten, Ich habe nicht alles verstanden, ich deutsch öfter sprechen : Was du erklärt für Ron, ist dass die unteren dichtungs fläche nicht allerdings 90 grad ist, korrekt ? Oder Ron verwirrt Zylinder aufborung (Gusseisen oder Sleeve montage) mit Honen (45° "krätzer", um öl zu behalten, und die bore zu die korrekte grösse fertig zu machen) ? Danke

I finally had and answer from Powerseal, Arnold, the check you made on each cilinder foot, Powerseal is confirming me again that they never do that ! That is crazy !

You repeat my words about checking the surfaces to the bore. We don’t do that. Simply because there is no reason why this should be wrong, and should be checked at every cilinder.

Cilinders don’t get twisted by itself or by no reason. If there is a reason to check it, we check it ofcourse. But for sure it is not standard procedure.

We make almost 10.000 cilinders every year, and never have this problem.

I wait for the answer for an appointment. What we make : I go to Powerseal to pick my cilinder, I bring it to Wietse for Geometry control, with the engine blok too. After his measures, he propose to call Powerseal to explain them, what the problem is about, with the foot not perpendicular to bore... Hope they will understand him, maybe easier for him, than me in English, trying to explain my innoncense... Wonder is that Powerseal take in charge at least a new coating... but I thing I hope too much.

I let made two other Nikasil for other bike this year, now I think I will better let them to a lathe guy to check foot surface, I am worry about this now, and I did not start them yet, reason to be sure they are correctly made, wont broke other engines.

Arnold thanks again for supporting me, quite sure problem come 99% from the cilinder geometry, because what I did not saw in the past, even with the broked INA, is that the piston pen is not polished in the middle, but on a side. That is confirming the probability of bore default.

Otherwise, your crank was perfect, and as you said, I mounted it to 0.01 of axial after only 3km in the house street, because I had quickly after first start radial play (And you were right about this, that NSK should be set to zero)

If the cilinder had not this issue, I am sure that the Florett could live few thousand kilometers.. with your Rito and the perfect balance you made.

C'est comme ça... Next time I wonder it will be the good one.

A pleasure for me to give you a job a next day, if you want to work again Wietse proposed me his work, I will soon go in Holland.

Best Regards, Florian

[Ronvanderstelt]

Hope the probleem will be solved florian

[MichelVH]

I sort of understand Powerseal's answer. If the cylinder bore is not square with the foot surface, It's not their problem. The cilinder was good enough to have lasted a full life of 1 Nicasil plating, so nikasiling to the same dimensions shouldn't be any problem. Also, if they bore it up to a bigger bore and square, they will have to use an extreme amount of nikasil to plate it to the original bore size.

But I also understand you, they should check and notify you if the bore is not correct...

[Sturmovik]

Good evening guys, few weeks ago I was planning to drive to Nederland, determined to resolve all of those problems I had with that engine. I was waiting until it will be finish to write, but anyway, it is not done yet. I cannot resume it by few sentence’s, so If you have no patience to read this long thing, I can understand it

In this mess, I can say I had the chance to met two persons, first is the guy from Powerseal, who considered me. I am the customer, and the cylinder is ruining my engine, wright. But glad they are trying to help. Maybe another factory would say me to figure myself… Second person is Wietse. After a few emails, we found a day that was ok for both, for a meeting. So I decided to drive to Holland. From my location, it took me 650km to drive to Nuenen (Powerseal), and after 250 more to meet Wietse. What I can do for this Kreidler…

So, Monday the 25 of February, I had an appointment for 9am at Powerseal. I arrived the yesterday late in the night, slept a bit, before this important day. I met the guy I already speaked a lot by emails about my issues, and the idea to come in person…etc
As planned, he first made me a visit of the workshop, explaining me all steps of the process, from packet receiving, cylinder customer identification, to pre-honing, degreasing, acid…etc
Unfortunately I did not took any pictures, because we were speaking about this, and the guy was passionate like me. I wasn’t thinking “Let get the phone to capture this and show to everyone”.
I have it perfectly in mind, but sure I regret to forget to take some pictures, souvenir…

Anyway, you probably already know how a coating process work. I can speak about it with pleasure, now I know how it works, and it is quite interesting !

Returning back to the reason why I drived to Holland, my cylinder, we went back to the workshop (We were in the “chemical” room), and speaked again about the thing. At this time he was still thinking that the problem couldn’t be their fault. Remember this for the end of this topic…

The idea was to pick up the cylinder, piston…the whole top end, to give them to Wietse, with my already damaged engine blok in the car. So, after this 1 hour appointment with Powerseal, I took the car again to meet Wietse. Almost 3 hours later I was in there.

Damned, I am 900km far from home, only for the Kreidler ! But for now, no regrets. I met Wietse, very sympathic, passionate, and full of advises !
I am already wearing my old mechanic overalls, I did not come here for vacation !

What I can do for a resume, is that Wietse let all of his work aside when I was by him, completely dedicated to my visit !

Meeting a guy who’s passionate by Kreidler, when you’re also are passionate by the same thing, is simple, cannot stop speaking about
Before my coming, Wietse was knowing what I wanted : The check of the geometry, check of the Crankshaft, and some other stuffs, let’s see more :

Wietse machined a custom tube for holding my cylinder by his bore in the lathe Machine.
That immediately confirmed me one of the mistery of this doomed bike : Foot in not perpendicular to bore !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-mJ-Rmbbs4

Arnold, your were 100% right !

Not easy to measure that, but the Dial showed almost 12 hundreds, if I good remember.
Like “relieved” to find this, but also very angry… that the process of new Nikasil does not include this quite easy check :
They have a special spindle to hold cylinders from their bore on the lathe, don’t understand why this is not a formality for each customers.

Mine bore was crap before their overhaul, so maybe already not aligned before.. but how to waste perfectly an engine… here it is !
Because I was worried about those coatings, and cause I let Powerseal made another cylinder just after the Kreidler, I bring to Wietse all of my cylinders for the same check. (3 vehicles waiting their overhaul to be finished)
This would be the next day, now it is still Monday, and I am first here for the Kreidler.

I came with all my tools and the blok, the clutch, the new Mikuni, all parts that I have question for…etc. I have the chance that Wietse immediately trusted me.
Yeah, he could told me “I make everything, call you back later, good bye” but NO : I was expecting to make myself the much I can, and he let me made Kilometers I drive are justified now !

He get me some space on his bench, I dismantled the blok I know by heart now, after those repeated mount/dismount. I think I never made it so quick before.
This was the opportunity to exchange with a specialist. About the parts that are to have or to avoid, about his way to do that.
For example, I finally understood why my clutch is so hard to pull, even with the new clutch arm + bus, the spring is a 100kg. Other thing, I took him some aluminum disks, cause mine are in steel, something like old “race” stuff, crazy. He also checked me both gearbox axis, that are fine. Only one of them had a wrong wide, he rectified me by pressing a gear on the wise. I was not knowing this tweak.
Other thing, I spoke you few times about my brand new KTT Head that was subject to leaks… I tried with 1000 gasket paper on a thick flat glass… this is for finishing… Wietse checked me the same way, but with a harder paper, much under 500, and after few hands movement only, it was showing us not flat, far away! He rectified me the thing. One less problem! So new not mean good… Probably not happening with a Mahle

Otherwise, dismantling the block again for what? For checking the crankshaft. Yeahh, remember few weeks ago, when I had the troubles with the top end, in Oktober, I saw that the “balancing” clearance of the brand new Rito was already bigger, worrying me about a possible big end damaged by the Nikasil.
Wietse reassured me about this quick increased conrod axial play and “twisting”, it could only come from the both bronze shims that are on side of webs, because they are getting “worn” after first kilometers, after the break in. Worn is not the correct word, it is like if they are getting honed, adapted to the whole thing, causing the clearance to change. Not easy to say. in french, it is "Rodage". English "Break In" I think, not sure.

But after this lathe check of the cylinder, we had this confirmation that the top end worked not straight. Remember the issue I founded when dismantling, the broken INA with needles that were falling on the floor of the shop. Worries were justified, it wasted me the brand new Rito :

For the INA, Wietse is thinking it is not a genuine one, and he showed me the bearing he had in stock, even the wide, and the color were a bit different from mine. I have this bearing from Kreidlerparts or something like, I will check in the bills, but to say… we never know. Sold as a INA, looks like it is not a INA. Anyway, we are not sure, but this thing, in addition with the geometry caused this :



The Eye of the conrod is unfortunately touched. Not much, like 0.01 or 0.02, but simple : the bore of the eye was a bit wider on a side… probably on the side which the cylinder was “tilting”… not easy to say that in English, I try.

So Arnold, your brand new crankshaft, 300km, is already to overhaul :/ My deception is big, cause I always remember that I never sended you the whole block in the past, only left carter (Oil seal modification), crankshaft, and clutch parts + kick. If I gave you everything in the past, including the Top End, you would see immediately the problem it had. My bad, I could’nt expected that problems like this were possible. Annoyed that It wasted your work and the parts.

Wietse checked his parts, He had no same grey 12mm Rito in stock. We would see it later.

The “final” important thing to do on this visit was the carter foot gasket surface.
This crazy geomotry issue with the cylinder learned me something : Nothing is impossible, and you can be stunned when you finally understand those things !

Now with “nude” carters, after the removal of the hardware, the gearbox…everything, and some brake cleaner to remove best I can the remaining Kroon Oil, we protected all bearing (Cause I had already changed them 300km ago…yes…) and closed again both pairs.

For installing them on the milling machine !

Holding them on the crossing tables, Wietse checked a few times the correct alignement on the machine, Off course that the mostly important setting is from “Left to right” > Checking that cylinder will work straight. A bit of default from up to dawn is not a crime, but anyway, we are on the milling machine, the opportunity to take this possibility of problems far away!
The “reference” is the clutch gasket surface, from right carter, Wietse explain me he always do like this, it is 100% sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKD0bgtUjxU

He starts, and what is immediately visible, is that we have a very little step between both carters. High is not exactly the same. Off course they are mounted with both centering bus, in good state, and carters are paired (Both same numbers on the cast)
He told me they have often this small default. I did never saw it, because when you mount, with the klingerit gasket, you have to cut what is exceeding. I never felt this small default, but this also have nothing to deal with all issues.
But now I can be reassured about this, no possible problems with carters

Wietse also resolved plenty of my doubts about Kreidler this day. You know, I am surfing on the internet since many years, for parts, for questions…etc, this opportunity to see by person someone who really know what is talking about was a very kind experience.

To say, Wietse is like Arnold, he took the time to make your job, and they are both as meticulous as me (I could be annoying about this) ! But it is not finished.

We were almost at the end of this day, all parts on the bench, not finished. And the thing is that the next day, Tuesday, I had to come back, because I was supposed to work Wednesday… Damned why I did not take a bit more of vacation… now its too late, not the choice, too late to ask my boss.

For making it good, it will be nice if I come back to home with all my parts. For the cylinder, Wietse is thinking that the Nikasil is not so bad, He propose to hone me on his side, and to lathe the foot at the very end, to correct the geometry. Im still not very trusting this coating (Remember this for later)

But what about the Crank…
It is already the evening, and Wietse invite me for the dining with all of his family! When I told you he was dedicated to his customers, I was more like a guest, instead of the customer
I will have a very nice memory of this visit!

Returning to mechanic, I told you at the beginning that I came in Holland with two other cylinders, one is also overhauled by Powerseal, and one other, a brand new for a Solex :
Why : Cause I was not trusting their integrity too.

He’s idea, machining a Nylon parts, so it will not scratch those brand new bores.
He has not the material in stock, so after the Diner, we go to one of his friends. I cannot remember his name, but this visit I will never forget. Meeting of his friend, who’s passionate and talented like him, working on few Kreidler. Van Veen I say ! No way, I thinked like this, cause they were looking same, but they explained me that they were much more sophisticated. One of them had a Bidalot Top End, adapted in a Van Veen looking Top End. I finally understood this thing, about the engine that has no coil around the crankshaft, cause of the Disk Inlet… that the Spark power is coming from a Battery that is enough for about 2 hours of practice. He showed me the future, amazing CNC Carters he have for a future work. Seeing by my eyes all of those parts I wondered, and saw so many times on internet, for example the Kröber, few handmade exhaust that were very nice welded (probably by silver soldering)… cannot resume as good it was, but to say, I had the desire to sit on one of those racers, and rest it the whole night ! Those guys are making the race I always see on Youtube, on Road, with more than 20Hp engines!

We took the Nylon material for the cylinder check, and went back to Wietse. This will be for tomorrow.

It was already late, but Wietse had an idea for my Crank, taking the Rito conrod from his brand new complete Rito assembly, to put It on mine original Kreidler webs that Arnold machined me for 12mm wide rod… That could permit me to take it back to home.

We will see that tomorrow.

For this second night I made some camping again. Is was freezing this end of February, day were hot as in Spring, I had chance for the weather this week end, sunny, but nights…


Anyway, I had a wonderful landscape when the sun rised !

At 9Am this Tuesday, I should go back to Wietse’s House, for finishing what we can do before my return to France.

For the Crank, We go by a friend of him, cause Wietse don’t like the Bench he have for measurements. His friend replace me the conrod. Remembering that the conrod top eye get damaged by INA, and by the geometry default, the crazy thing is that the big end is still like new… damned! Only half wasted…

An other thing, I will finally go to 1:50. I was still worry about this, But Wietse has more experience, and confirm me, like all of you, that 1:50 would be enough. I say that, cause the bigend was wet. So if it is wet with 4%, I have a marge of security to reduce.
And after 300km, all of this carbon in exhaust and on the cylinder head… waste of oil, my bad. Mine get not burned enough.

So they replaced the conrod, and the thing it that the pin of the whole Rito assembly was a bit different as the one delivered with the spare Rito Conrod (The grey one, delivered alone in the red box, Part Number RITO N°167048)
A bit shorter… this did not caused any fitting problems, but it was not perfectly in the middle. I was not 100% satisfied of this, and of the balance, but they both affirmed it is enough and reliable, they know.

After that, we made all that could be made for yet on the Kreidler. I still have two ther brand cylinder to let check by Wietse, for their foot surface... worry about this thing now

For those both check, Wietse need something else to hold cilinders, the nylon bar he took yesterday from his friend. First is a 41mm bore, and the other, liquid cooled, is a 56mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlu8-YrP2b0

He first make the bar to 56mm for the Japanese Cilinder.

This is the second i let made by Powerseal, just after the Kreid. No issues, foot was right to bore (And glad of that, cause I never had troubles with 40.000km with this bike before I send it to them for overhaul)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5KR2CgfCCI

Them he finally reduce the nylon bar to 41mm for holding the Solex thing.

Glad I came with those parts, before riding with them. This Solex cylinder, an aftermarket from the internet, has the particularity to be in Aluminum, with a Nikasil Coating. On my side I took plenty of measures to “know” if it was a shit or a serious thing. Bore measurements showed me it was well made, looking serious, with a good honing…and a corresponding piston clearance, regarding to the caracteristics… but what about the foot ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEYAI-0Dyh0

Not straight, on this brand new product !

So all of this, Was already like middle off the day, and I remembered I had almost 1000km to do before Wednesday, to work…
I let the Kreidler cylinder to Wietse for now, I come back home with all other parts, including both other cylinders

So, already, highway for the rest of the day, I have to work tomorrow, no choice.
What I had to say is that your country is beautiful. If I come again another time, I had to took more time, cause I only drove and was in the workshop. But what a crazy thing to drive under the sea level, with plenty of wind turbines long the coast…

At 23pm I was finally at home. This weekend, I made almost 2000km, and spent 600€… Damned... 200€ of gasoline (this one I underrated…) and about 400 for this doomed bike…
I did not spent anything else than gasoline and everything for the Kreidler. I did not even made a small visit of something in your country, it was too short, Id better come few more days, an offer me an hostel. Don’t care of me, only spent on the bike…^^

Again, what is getting me on nerves on this bike, is that with all the money I spent, I could have a 12 or more PK machine, with good quality parts, like alu rims…etc. I have nothing off that. But anyway, it should become reliable know, I hope so, or I will definitely be disgusted I think !

No regrets of this meeting with Wietse and Powerseal, the opposite of course !

I think Id better drive to Holland two or three years earlier, on my first restauration “attempt”… If all those issues were find at the beginning, I will already enjoying the Kreidler since a long time…

Too late for that… and, it is STILL NOT FINISHED !
The week after my trip, the end of the week at work, I waited the week end to work again on the engine. Was planning to close it, with the overhauled crankshaft, it could be done, whilst waiting for the cylinder to come back from Wietse. But what I finded on the crank before mounting it on carters was weird…

Under my bright workshop light, I saw that the conrod eyes, on the piston side, had something wrong !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ryI-0umsZ8



This brand new conrod taken from the Rito Complete assembly has a default, like Forging default, porosity… Don’t know how much time it happened, but when I told you I have no luck !
Wonder how they could wrap this part with a default like this in the package and send it to customers.
Glad that Wietse is a serious guy. He told me to send it immediate for a replacement. Crazy thing is that I was at him one week ago at the moment, but unfortunately, Him, his friend who made the crank, and me, we did not see this thing at the assembly!
Again some post costs… I think I must better not include them in all of my bills, they are getting me angry.

And when I told you it is not finished, the Kreidler has a thing in common with the Yamaha (The liquid cooled cylinder), those both cylinders, I trusted Powerseal to make them, in the same period (Cause I was initially satisfied of the Kreidler Cylinder i received back from them + LVS, even before riding with it)

Now this Yamaha, I also overhauled the blok 100%, bearings, crankshaft with a new rod, balanced by Arnold the last year (I only took time for mount yet)
And you know what: I started the bike, and let it idle for almost 20 minutes, for getting hot, and after that I let it cool, and retorque the head. And for curiosity, I checked by exhaust port. The cylinder is showing us exactly the same crazy things as I encountered with the Florett, something is getting wrong with the coating were the pistons rings are working. Not as much, cause I did not ride yet, but like the Kreidler, some polished and glazed zone around ports, with already missing honing !
Despited, I recontacted Powerseal. With the Kreidler, even with the foot geometry default, they were still trusting their process, and they could (I saw the thing, a bath treat 28 cylinders at the same time. So mine could have a problem, but the 27 other should also have…)

But now, on two complete different bikes, with different parts, even different 2 stroke oil, different clearances, but with the same coating issue, coating that is getting worn quicker than the piston (What a crazy way, like if Nikasil was to soft) they are starting to get worried.

I immediately dismantled the Yamaha’s top end, and asked Wietse to make the same with the Kreidler Cylinder I let him, send the cylinder to Nuenen. Because they told me they want to make some analysis. I hope so that they want to check the Vickers of coating or something like. I never had so fast wear as those I have with both cilinders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OLnWokbkc4

For comparison, with the Yamaha, before Powerseal, I rode almost 40000km. The bore at the factory exit is 56,00mm. Before my send to Powerseal it was only 56,03 in so much years of riding, and riding fast !

I hope so that they will make both new again, stoping this mess, regarding to all it costs me. Glad I dismantled before riding on the Yam, don’t need to waste a new time an engine… all of this costs are for me, so I think the minimum is an explain about the coating issue, and new reliables ones on both engines.

For now, the season is a fiasco ^^ I just look at both bikes, one has no engine, the other was finished, ready to ride, until I saw cylinder had the same doom ^^

See you soon, hope so. Thanks

[Flocke]

Never ending story ...

Es tut mir leid, dass Du so viel Pech hast, schon eine fast unglaubliche Geschichte. Aber wenigstens hast Du ein paar gute Leute, die Dir helfen.

Das mit dem Rito-Pleuel, das ist kein Einzelfall. Ich hatte ja den Motor meiner Eiertank überholt, da hatte ich das selbe Problem.
Also in eine Kurbelwelle, ein neues Pleuel einpressen lassen, und auch gleich das Problem.
Somit scheint das wirklich kein Einzelfall zu sein.

Für mich sieht das so aus, als wenn die Bohrung stellenweise schon zu groß war und dann die Feinbearbeitung (Honen oder Reiben) nicht mehr alle Stellen glätten konnte, weil zuvor beim groben Bearbeitungsschritt an der Stelle schon zuviel Material abgetragen wurde.

Ich hatte das auch erst gesehen, nachdem ich die Lager aufgepresst, das Lagerspiel eingestellt hatte und den Motor gerade wieder zusammenbauen wollte. Fand es dann auch sehr ärgerlich, weil ich die Arbeit nicht fortsetzen konnte.
Hatte davon Fotos gemacht und der Händler, der mir das Pleuel eingepresst hatte, bat mich ebenfalls, die Welle wieder zurückzuschicken, er hatte dann auch schnell ein neues Pleuel eingepresst.

Ich hatte ihn dann noch darauf aufmerksam gemacht, dass ich zuvor an den eingefrästen Ölschlitzen am unteren Pleuelauge, Späne entfernt hatte. Wenn man sich das genau mit der Lupenbrille angeschaut hatte, sah man, dass an den Enden der Ölschlitze Restmaterial hing, jeweils ein großer Span, den man mit einer Reissnadel abhebeln konnte. Wenn sich sowas während des Motorlaufes löst, ist das auch nicht schön.

Er kannte das Problem mit den verbliebenen Spänen und sagte, dass er die normalerweise auch immer entfernt, aber er hatte es wohl übersehen. Also auf den Punkt sollte man ebenfalls achten.

Die Kurbelwelle kam mit einem neuen Pleuelsatz zurück und das sah dann gut aus.

Mittlerweile ist die Motorüberholung fast 3 Jahre her, ich bin mit dem Motor über 5.000km gefahren und der läuft einfach nur top und sehr vibrationsarm, ohne jegliche Panne oder Veränderung, ich habe seit dem aber auch nie den Zylinder heruntergezogen und mir die Laufbahn angeschaut ...
Warum auch, wenn er gut läuft. Ist aber auch ein neuer originaler Mahle-Satz gewesen, hatte mal durch das Zündkerzenloch gepeilt, dabei war mir nichts ungewöhnliches aufgefallen.

Wünsche Dir wirklich, dass es sich möglichst bald zum Besseren wendet, die Pechsträhne aufhört und Du endlich mal ein paar Erfolgserlebnisse bzgl. Deiner Motorenschrauberei hast, so kann man ja wirklich die Lust verlieren und verzweifeln

Ich bewundere Deine Hartnäckigkeit und Durchhaltewillen, aber es nützt ja auch nichts ...

Alles Gute

Carsten

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[Sturmovik]

Hallo Carsten,

Danke für deine empathie, glück dass Arnold, Wietse, und euch, etwas über fräser und drehbank kennen.
Bin ich sehr überrascht über des Rito Defekt. Ich war ziemlich zuversichtlich, wenn früher Arnold mir die 12mm pleuel auf die originale Kreidler wangen montiert, ins besonders dass eine 12mm vielleicht eine bissen überwertet für eine ori 6.25 SuperBreitwand. (English : Overdone)

Allerdings war es mein wahl, um eine grosse sicherheitsmarge zu haben… Und hatte ich damals gedacht „Wenn ich ein tage ein bissen mehr wollen, wie ein getuned zylinder zumbeispiel, hat ich schon eine ausreichende Pleuel.
Bin ich nicht sicher, aber glaub dass die Rito 12mm schon für 15ps bereit, möglich ? Ich kenne nicht die maximale Drehmoment Fähigkeit.
Früher, nach die erste überholung die die nach 600km zerstört war (Original Nikasil die die lagern beschädigt, und Top Racing Pleuel getroffen), mehreren hatten mir gesagt Rito oder Samarin.

Samarin war nicht verfügbar, wofür haben wir mit Arnold eine Rito gewählt.
Ich war also zuversichtlich, und heute weiss ich dass die zweite zerstörung noch wegen Nikasil beschädigt… und egal die pleuel qualitat, weiss dass keine pleuel gegen Nikasil silicium halten kann.…
Zusatz zu den Geometrie Sorge, dass die fuß des Zylinder nicht 90 grad von bohr ist… da kann ich verstanded, warum meine zweite pleuel in 900km schon für müll ist :/
Die logische lösung, war, nach den fräsen von beiden carters, zylinder fuß, die selbe Rito wehlen.

Wietse hat mir eine äquivalent 12mm Rito gefund (Model aus des voll Rito Welle), aber diese porosität auf kolbenbolzen seite ist eine erste für mich. Du kannst verstehen meine „Nase voll“ nach diese „Überraschung“, aber wenn du sagts dass kein einzellfall ist, muss ich besorgt… kann ich wirklich diese marke vertrauen ?
Jetzt hab ich angst.
Sowieso hat ich immer noch nicht meine teilen. Beiden Zylinder (Yamaha und Kreidler) sind bei Powerseal, ich warte für eine Erklärung, hoffe dass sie eine „vickers“ test machen, um diese schnell Verschleiß erklären, und für die kurbelwelle Weiß ich immer nicht, ob Wietse die Pleuel gewechselt und die Auswuchtung des Ding gemacht, oder nicht.
Nach meinem trip zur Niederland dachte ich dass ich diese blok für März fertig macht…

Die Unsinn dieses pleuel, ist dass Rito von „Quality Check“ usw spricht :
http://www.rito.pt/client/skins/english ... produto=27

Wie kann eine solche mangel die test reichen ?
Wenn ich Wietse war, sendet ich diese ding gleich zurück nach Fabrik.
Für deine Fotos, glaubst du nicht dass es von eine honen Fehler kommt ? Dass die steinen vielleicht nicht gut eingeleitet war ?
Auf meine Habe ich sofort „Porosität“ gesagt, aber die Herstellung Prozess kenne ich nicht.
Luftblase während schmiede ? Dass darf nicht möglich. Vielleicht mehr ein Korrosion solange es gelagert war, aber überdeckt mit Öl… nicht logisch

Danke für deine unterstütz, immer interessant, und lass mich motiviert, weil heute, habe ich die Wunsch zum Aufgeben. Seit 2014 diese ding gekauft soll es schon langer Zeit fertig und ZUVERLÄSSIG !
Ich denkt immer zur meinem Freud die 3 oder 4 Kreidler hat. Allen sind original, KEINE Überholung. Habe ich nun einigen Buchsen und Gabel Simmerring gewechselt, und eine Große Reinigung gemacht. Diese schmutz hatte aber die rahme Geschütz, rostfrei ! Sogar bloks sind original, lagern, Simmerring, Dichtung. Keine öl flucht, es start am ersten kick, es läuft schön ohne abnomal geräusch, wunderbar, zuverlässig, ein Panzer ! Du kannst meine Eifersucht verstanden !
Zu sagen, seine RS die die knapp 20.000km hat, hat noch die erste Mahle kolben. Ich hab ihn gemesst, hat immer noch 0.03mm spiel mit dem Zylinder, unglaublich ! Natürlich hat ich nicht zu sagen auf seinen Nikasil, wie neu !

Ich denkt immer dass ich nicht die gute gekauft hatte. Eine teurer wurde vielleicht besser, komplett, und ohne alle basteln ich auf meine gefundet.

Bis bald

[Sturmovik]

Hello Guys, I finally obtained some news from Powerseal, my both cilinders are by their shop since few week now... :

They are still telling there is no problem on both. When I ask why the honing is getting polished and glazed after only minutes, there is a sort of embarassment or unclear.

Cause they are concerned for their customers, they propose to make both coating new, on their costs, and to check their geometry after that. He says that my case let them think they should make this geometry check as a formality... Hope so for next jobs. Have both new coating could reassure me, but I still dont know what happened.

When they proposed me to send everything for an analysis, I though they would be a "chemical" way to check a coating, mayeb to know if it as hard enough, hox much vickers...etc... But no way.

For my other bike, no question, they make it again to 56.00mm, the standard bore. For the Kreidler,; I am hesitating to keep the Meteor. With a new pin it can do, looking good, But im am thinking the thing that he worked not straight for 300km. However the piston choice, maybe good idea to send it directly to Powerseal, in any case they will send me everything back.

Wietse has good experiences with Barikits, and also with Meteor. Powerseal dont like those Meteor (Dont explained why) But Anyway the Meteor did not made troubles, I mean on his skirt, that is still the same value. In contrast, both rings were noisy. Remember > I already speaked about this in October 2018, I was already worried at the begining...

Wiseco/RSP i dont now.

Wietse if you come here, what is your opinion, to make this the seriously way possible ? Barikit ? Meteor with other rings for Nikasil ?

I have to answer then sooner possible for the desired bore diameter

Thanks

[jamojamo]

I also expressed my doubts about the INA small end bearing from KP in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46835&hilit=aan+gort#p769944
It may have been okay for high revs as claimed in the description on the webshop but I immediately after receipt doubted the quality too and phoned them to ask about it.
Later from Wietse I obtained a really good one. Wietse knows his stuff but now I know why he is so busy (all these frenchies coming to his house )
I hope you can soon end all your troubles and spendings. You must reaaly love tinkering with old bikes.
Ciao,
Eric