Kreidler K54/53B 1973

Verslagen van restauraties, het volledig opknappen en opnieuw opbouwen van een Kreidler - Restoring a Kreidler
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Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#326 Bericht door Sturmovik » 09 okt 2018, 20:30

Hello Guys,

I must be morron, because this play I can see by eyes on piston rings :


When I take my piston in hand, I can measure only 0.05mm of axial play for the L-Ring, and less than 0.04 for the second one... don't know why it was so visible in cilinder by exhaust port (Engine was cold, not hot) Those could be standard values ? Logically yes, because it is new...

So that could be normal... how is it possible I ear this tiking coming from top end... 0.95mm is the correct ignition point. Carburation is even a bit rich, becaue i dont made jetting yet with the Mikuni, i tried with big jets for first start, and here is a proof it was rich
Afbeelding


Normally, a rich mixture dont cause motor knocking, or autoignition, that should arrive when runing too lean...
I am convinced it is a noise of vibrating rings... crazy

Now something else, I can feel a little bit this stripe, dont knowwhat is it.
Afbeelding

I am more worried about cilinder. Freinds are telling me I am dumb to worry for nothing, but that sounds not normal for me that honing stripes are already missing in a lot of area. Around exhaust and inlet port, missing and polished. In the top end zone, dead point of L-Ring, also missing honing stripes and mat texture.

Afbeelding

See those lot of polished zone, see like reflexions/hues
Afbeelding

I always compare to my 125, and she had not those sort of strange things after 30000km... polished zone after twenty kilometers mean a problem with the coating or only some "washing' that may cause by rich mixture ?

No honing stripes mean no lubrication holding !

Afbeelding

There is also a few vertical lines, some of them are black. We cannot feel anything with nails, it is only on surface. I first thinked of the gap opening zone of rings, but stripes are all arround the bore, not only where the rings are opened !

Afbeelding

This one scare me :

Afbeelding

Respected heat, never started and volgass... i dont even rode fast yet.. Clearance of 0.03mm also, and of course good oil !

An idea ?

I sended thos picture to Powerseal, just to ask.

When dismantling today, I have already a Cilinder Head leaking :

Afbeelding

To remeber, gasket plan of cilinder is rectified before powerseal, and head is a brand new KTT. Gaskt is a 0.2mm Alu, tightening 1-3-4-2 to 14Nm, and Squish good : 0.9mm

Afbeelding
Dont understand, we can see that gasket as been correctly crushed everywhere (and on both side)

Thanks for your support and sympathy,

Florian

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#327 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 okt 2018, 19:20

Hello everybody,

it seems like I go back to last year...

I rode 300km this last week end, it was perfect, more than 90km:h, was very proud of this 40ZN17...almost 100 on GPS for a 50cc, I could't expect more !

Unfortunately Tuesday when getting back to home after work, I wasnt able to go more than 80... I took compression again and whilst I had 9 bars the week end, I had only 7 to 7.5 yet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI1BIzxPg_o&t=5s



And Remember I already asked for this crazy thing after 50 first kilometers :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWL-rydwF4A&t=1s




Also with my 300 km of this week end the problem increased :/

I also dismantled again top end, and I see exactly same thing as last year when the Nicasil was damaged.... all the piston ring working zone is now a mirror, and no more honing spuren. The top dead point of L-Ring is also mat (Like no more Nikasil) and there is few vertical stripes again (No feel by nail)... Crazy is that the piston is perfect, no sign of something wrong, no seizure or bloking !

Last year the overhauled engine let me ride 647km before I saw that the 1981 Mahle Nikasil was defekt, this year after a 200€ Powerseal and the "better dan nieuw' engine overhaul, I made 300km... I cannot understood.

1:25, 0.95mm ignition, no leaks, already black bougie, piston head, and combustion chamber, and piston was full of oil... not a lubricating problem, not my fault. What I can think is that the new coating is not holding correctly.... I am already thinking of cranshaft bearings that were detroyed by old nikasil last year (remember those problems)

I feel really despited now, this bike is haunted, I cannot making it better, again lot of money, and what really hurt me, is the whole time I spent working on it.... This weekend was a pleasure, of small duration. To compare, my 125 did 41000km before I sended the cilinder for a new coating, and now it has also the Powerseal coating... don't tested yet... may I be worried ?...

Did someone already experienced a problem with a brand New Nikasil ?

Like I said, it is worn on the same areas as last year, I can recognize same issue. You can compare with my last year pictures or video, you wil see the same.

Pistons rings have nothing wrong, gap is respected, and also all other measures. Squish also superior that 0.9mm of course...

Powerseal did not respond, I was knowing from begining that something was wrong, last week I already asked you for my coating after only 20km, that it was already polished on some transfers areas... need to understand.

Normally they dive the cilinder in acid bath to remove old layer, after that they hone to make a perfectly cylindric surface, that will hold new one.. Nikasil should not be very deep > I have a "N25" mark from the factory on inlet side)

I dont dare to check bottom engine, if I see again particles like last year, tired to dismantle after every ride for shit problems... I never known reliabilty on my Kreidler, that is supposed to be a reliable motorrad... Damned

That was this Sunday :cry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36mDK-oUqS0&t=126s


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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#328 Bericht door nozems » 25 okt 2018, 21:10

Ik doe het even in het nederlands. Powerseal is goed, ik heb een rs tot 80cc laten maken. Afgelopen weekend cilinder gedemonteerd en na 35/37.000km staan de hoonsporen er nog goed in. Wel de bekende glimmende plekjes rond in&uitlaat kanaal. En wat streepjes zoals bij jou. Maar niet voelbaar, mogelijk door vuiligheid veroorzaakt? Aangezien ik er al zoveel mee gereden heb verwacht ik dat de cilinderwand er zeker nog een keer 35.000km tegenaan kan.

Ik denk dat je je zorgen maakt om niks. Let wel op, als het mengsel echt te rijk is kan deze de oliefilm van je cilinderwand af spoelen. Maar dan heb je wel een heel erg rijk mengsel. Gewoon weer monteren, desnoods nog goed afstellen en na 40.000km weer eens kijken hoe het ervoor staat.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#329 Bericht door Enzo-tvdzijden » 25 okt 2018, 21:20

Ik rij alleen maar met mijn Kreidlers.

Enzo

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#330 Bericht door Caspar » 26 okt 2018, 13:42

The original Mahle NiCaSil layer was thin. The 2,0 and 2,9hp cylinder even very thin...
The powerseal coating is thicker.

Once i had a small chip/flake broke out of the coating at the exhaust port.
Further on, no complaints.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#331 Bericht door nozems » 26 okt 2018, 13:53

Jij sleuteld ook weleens aan je Kreidlers Tjerry:) maar je bedoeld natuurlijk na elke rit je cilinder demonteren, dat heeft weinig zin. Ik denk dat het een kwestie van vertrouwen is, ik snap hem wel omdat hij in eerste instantie een hoop slijpsel in zn blok aantrof. Maarja, een standaard RS is haast onverwoestbaar. Ik zou zeggen terug monteren die cilinder en rijden maar. Trouwens 100km/h op de gps met een standaard RS? Dan ben je ofwel erg klein (beneden de 1m75) of je hebt hem heel zwaar vertand en berg af de 100 gehaald?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#332 Bericht door MichelVH » 26 okt 2018, 18:33

You said the cylinder head was leaking, but I don't see burn marks outside burning chamber?

You should not worry so much, standard Kreidler RS is very robust. I use and abuse my 6,25 cylinder too, it just doesn't break. Make sure that all seals are 100% good and then start jetting the carb en timing the ignition. Then, nothing can happen.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#333 Bericht door Sturmovik » 26 okt 2018, 18:55

Sure Nozem ? I like what you said about your cilinder that honing spuren are stile there after 30000km. On all other bikes it was like this too, except on this Mahle. For the Rich mixture who flush oil film I know this reality, but I never made more than 1:25, and of course with a good oil (Anyway, you dont find oil who's not betther that in 80s years today...) So I really dont think I made something wrong with this overhault... And to comapre again, last years with the original1981 Nikasil and the correct Mahle piston, the cilinder was damaged exactly same... that i why I am thinking Coating does not hold correctly, would also never understand why, because Powerseal does not respond... even to explain.

My worry is that this worn concern the working zone of rings. I don't know the material used on the both Rings for the Meteor, but he's supposed to be for RS, also for Nikasil... Why am i so worried ? Simply because i see exactly the same as last years when the old layer was getting back... last year it was too late, was no more shiny without honing spuren like today, it was already mat on aluminum of cilinder wall. How oil is suppoed to hold now, without anymore honing spuren. It sound very fast to be worn on only 300km, that I need to understand.

I doubt that Powerseal would made a coating if Cilinder is to bad, right ? Mine was bad, and they made it new, so it is supposed to mean it was repairable.

I worry that problem increase and maybe that Nikasil goes again in bottom, destroying my new crankshaft like last time. Dont want to damage the Rito, NSK...etc

What gap do you set for piston rings ? I respected what I eard. Some guys in France are telling me that my Nikasil problem come from a piston rings who scraped it... this sounds not logical. If Piston Ring were mounted to thin, it would already broke or seized within those vollgas rides this week end... I mounted it with a gap of 0.10 to 0.15mm for those both rings.

Caspar, you had a broken parts of your Nikasil after Powerseal ? Some guys are telling that if it is under piston ring zone, it is not supposed to get worst. Some others founded cavity zone, may caused by to long acid bath, causing Nikasil to fell further on soem areas.

To finish, Nozem, i tried to translate sorry, I eard from everyone that standard setup are panzers quality, this is way I choosed a Florett in 2014... Unfortunately I have no reliability one mine, also at the moment... tjaaa. My father had a RS in the 80s, withotu taking any care of it, and it was never causing trouble... Also my friend RS has nothing wrong, even original Kaco Seals, no leaks...20000km, like new.... Shit !

For the 100km/h ^^ No worry, that was on VDO tacho, I obtained more than 90 on GPS, by seating it, not by beeing stretched on tank. Sad I did had the tiem to capture this... This made me very proud of the 40ZN17, and I dont think a KTT can make this... I am attached to my original cilinder, it work, unfortunatley not long time... when riding it was much better that what I expected... and in France we have now a 80km/h speed limit, meainign a RS is enough to ride without danger.

This is enough for me, and also incredible for a 50cc without poorts tuning...

Its also near from old legends saying that Kreidler were fast ^^... And that was with a rich carburation, because i choosed safety for my first rides, decided to check bougie often (now Black, too rich)

Of course I have a long transmission, but there is also not a flat landscape here, I would have to find a compromise.

Difference between my friend RS and mine was big, the 40Zn17 goes high in RPM, reason of the topspeed. I also mounted a thicker voetpacking last week after my 20km check, it increased the squish, and also the "facility"' to goes in high rpm, in detriment of torque of course...

Thanks for your support, wonder what I would make of it if I were alone !

Michel, for Head leaking, that was on my first 20 kilometers at low RPM also. I discovered this, decided to dismantled again (When I said you tha something was crazy with My Nikasil, already polished...)

I was suprised, becasue cilinder gasket surface was rectified, nad head is a Brand New KTT... Fact is that the KTT was not perfectly flat.. :shock: I enhanced this on a thick glass with 1000 paper... the liquid red gasket, that is no making me happy, but it is the only way I found to make this alu kop pakking leak free... Id better tet made a O-Ring modificatie.. And of course it is tightened to 14Nm and in correct order 1-4-3-2.

Glad I saw this before riding those 300km, because that could overheat my engine and get it leaner.

Ignition is already set with Dial + Strobo lamp to 0.95, carburation rich, didn't took the time to set it better yet. You are not worried from missing honing spuren ? Before dismantling, It was not getting over 80KM:h i lost 2 bars of compression, and crazy thing it that MEteor looks nothing wrong..

Seals are New, KACO, no oil behind flywheel, that is impossible with new gaskets and good carter state.

I will measure the bore again on 3 point to compare with the 39.975mm I had 300km ago... just to see If i am fool or not :roll:

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#334 Bericht door nozems » 26 okt 2018, 20:21

Had je de compressie gemeten voordat je er een meter mee gereden had? Het kan zijn doordat je de boel met olie gemonteerd heb er minder lekkage kon ontstaan. Hoe dan ook afgaande op hoe jouw cilinder en zuiger er nu uitzien zou ik me geen zorgen maken. De glimmenende plekjes die jij nu ziet had ik ook in mjn cilinder zitten na een klein stukje rijden, maar dat is nadien niet veel veranderd.

80/90km/h is een normale snelheid voor een standaard rs, de top zal eerder nog rond de 85 liggen.

Let wel of je frame schoon is vanbinnen en er geen straalgrind inzit, dat gaat allemaal door het standaard stalen zeefje heen en beschadigd dan je motor, die krassen voel je echt wel in je cilinderwand en zuiger.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#335 Bericht door Sturmovik » 26 okt 2018, 21:22

Nozem, I measured few times compressie to compare and write in my report (Kick + Vollgas opening)

Before first Start (Also oil that increase the result I know) : bit more than 9 bars
After first 20 km : about 9 bars
After about 200km when bougie check : same 9 bars
Last ride when i felt the bike was riding slower : 7 bars to 7.5...

For frame, I already said that painter did shit, and I did cleaned the inside for hours, and after that protected with Tectyl-ML. No more dirt, I even rent a mini camera to film inside to see if sand were remaining. Nothing, it is clean.

And thar is also nothing to do with, because I made those kilometers with a Twin Air, no more the plastic Airbox... And you have the proof that my carburation was rich (of course I increase sproeiers for test with this twin air foam, it let passe more air that the airbox, so it get leaner if you dont mount bigger sproeirs.)

I assure that Sunday it was a bit faster that 90kmh, I have a long transmission. We cannot trust the VDO Tachometer, but I have the habbit to ride this speed with my 125.

Your really not worried from this missing honing ? Someone is saying me that my rings could be to "strong" for Nikasil.. I never heard something like...

Anyway, I will measure again the bore to compare with when it "was" new.

For the stripes, the majority you can not feel them, and I can feel some of them just a bit with nail, not deep, but they are here... I dont think that the TwinAir could let dust pass inside. And I did not made offroad. A worn Nikasil without any worn on piston is a bit crazy or ?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#336 Bericht door MichelVH » 26 okt 2018, 22:07

If you are convinced that the Nikasil is not holding right, send the cilinder and piston back to the Nikasiler...

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#337 Bericht door Caspar » 28 okt 2018, 14:58

Better not use Chrome piston rings in a NiCaSil coating.
Goetze or simmilar is perfect

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#338 Bericht door Sturmovik » 05 nov 2018, 21:15

Hello,

Michel, this is what I wanna make, because measures are showing me that it is already worn, exactly in same area as last years, around poorts.
I can understand what you are saying about strong of Kreidler, My friend has a 20000km RS, his bore as still the factory values... and still 0.03mm of play with the Mahle piston.

I insure that mine is already dying, it is a question of luck i think, because I have strange problems with all my vehicles. I would not be worry if everything was good, I have the eye now, to see those issues in time.
For this cilinder kop leaking, we dont see on photos because I made the KTT surface better, it was not flat, on a brand new product.... I tried to make it better, and mounted the gasket with a little high temp past, just a thin, a bit. Those 300km nothing was leaking, also it could not have been leaning carburation or something like. Bougie is Black, piston too, much carbon on head !

39.98 on top and bottom, and 40mm aroud poorts... 300km ago it was 39.975 everywhere... Were are those particules of worn supposed to go, of course through bearings anc conrod... Quite sure it has already destroyed the brand new Rito, like it detroyed the brand new TopRacing last year... lost of time, money, need to understand.

I also speaked with other 2 strokes owner, who did made new Nikasil for their own bikes... What remain, is that they are asking for geometry of my cilinder :?

Cilinder was 39,975mm everywhere after Powerseal, and the three gasket surface were perfectly flat, but a suggestion by guys : Is the bore also correctly perpendiculator to bottom gasket surface, and also alligned 100% to conrod ?

I first finded this theory crazy, but I started to think about... and I know the process of Nikasil. They put first cilinder in Acid bath to remove old layer (Mine i supposed to had long time in bath, because I received a very rough cilinder, full of black spot > remember this winter I speaked about) After that, they put them into honing machine, supposed to make the bore round, without conicity : Mine was oval last year

I know the machine / Where i was working, we had a red SUNNEN Honing Maching. By using this, the guy put cilinder on an axis. this axis has 4 stones, normally in Diamond for working on Nikasil when honing. He put the bore on this axis, when starting the machine, oil come into axis to lubricate the process. The guy make push an pulling movement, whilst pushing a pedal with his foot to expand stones. This hone the bore, but it never show the guy that bore can maybe not beeing alligned..

To compare, when reboring, for example for putting a new Sleeve, or rebore a Cast Iron Cilinder, the cilinder is maintained on machine by his bottom gasket surface, garanteeing a correct allignement of bore.

Remebering that my cilidner was very worn (Thanks to last "profi" that honed me too much old Nikasil), I could also think that the bore is not right in the correct direction... It is my last Idea, and could explain this hyper quick worn !

And wait : When I took a look of the piston pen last week end, after dismantling, I had a shock. The also brand new INA roller, 3 pins felt down on the floor.... and what i saw on pen is that traces are not in middle...

Afbeelding
Afbeelding

With carters in very good shape, krukas made my Arnold, and centered by me to 0.01mm, an error on our side is impossible. I also think that this bore as a serious default... and with a 200€ prestatie, I am very disgusted by Powerseal, they did not respond to me since I paid, and it is uncomprehensive, from a pro like them, to not measure correclty customers cilinders...

I cannot think there is a problem with my bottom end for exemple, carters are a couple, both same numbers... not for example the right from an other or a thing like this... Of course are both centering bus mounted...

This Florett is getting me on nerves, tired of this.

> Caspar, you mounted Goetze Rings on each Meteor before using them ? Normally they are designed for Kreidler RS, so supposed to be for Nikasil. With their cast iron rings, this could not be the reason of my coating worn.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#339 Bericht door Ed.P » 05 nov 2018, 21:49

Pakkingvlakken nameten/afdraaien na het nikasillen is een standaard gegeven.

De naaldlagerkooi heeft zwaar tegen de zuiger gelopen , lijkt mij overigens niet dat dit door een scheve cil.voet komt dan moet je ook een aftekening in de cilinder zien.
Ik denk dat je naaldlager te kort is , hoeveel ruimte zit er tussen de naaldlagerkooi en de zuiger ?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#340 Bericht door Sturmovik » 16 nov 2018, 21:37

Hallo,

Ed.p, I cannot say you yet the space between needle and piston "walls", but your theory seems right, because I had a small movement possibility, like to get on a side or an other, but also not so much, to say, note more as my 125, but this INA is also for Mahle, maybe not for RITO + Meteor ? The furnished one with the RITO was a little wider to fit ine the Meteor, something like 1mm to much, reason why I conserved it and purchased a INA (Kreidler Parts book reference for RS)

My bad for critics about Powerseal, of course I am disgusted, but they finally responded me, and apoligize for delay. The whole top end went again to Holland this week, and I had a answer this week after analysis. They dont think there is a geometry issue, and also confirm me that on their process they are verifiing all those things, reassuring me. So thinking again about piston rings. Fact is that the Meteor are correct, they are cast iron, Claus explained me. My only way to explain that now my Nikasil is destroyed only in the rings working zone (also 2/3 of the cilinder...) is that we have a problem with rings... otherwise what ?

How many clearance you adjust with your rings ? This value is not in Kreidler Books, I want your opinion on this if I can permit.

I was also thinking that Nikasil was more thicker around exhaust poorts, confirming it has been done on a bad oval bore, but Powerseal explained me, first it is an optical effect caused by different angles of poorts edge grinding, second, they are not making new coating on bad bores !

But today my cilinder is really worned, they propose a hone for an oversize piston, but I wait answer to know what is the thickness of coating, because if my cilinder is already " to end ".... shit. Crazy that is it worned i exact same zone as before new coating, reason why it is questioning me, becasue last year with the Mahle I had much more ring clearance (like 0.45) and it has also damaged old remaining Nikasil, or the other thing I think, 95% sure, is that the French guy did honed so much that he scraped him the Nikasil, and that I made after that 600km without knowing this problem...


Fact is that I have also not find the reason of this worn yet. And after new coating, I think i can forget this last year issue. Disgusted to destroy twice brand new crankshafts... because this Nikasil should go somewhere, we went from 39.975 to more than 40, maybe again particles in bearings, realistic ? I am quite sure to find dust behind seals if I open it again.

I also made a nightmare, thinking a geometry problem could be in bottom, but with my carters in great shape, and paired (633 Left, 633 right) i cannot think of this... With an allignement defaut, you will have worn just one side of the cilinder right ?

Also otherthing, my Rito had a balance of 0.80mm when new, now + 300km, I have more that 1.10mm... this is also confirming my worry that this Nikasil damage is again gone through bottom bearings like last year ? Tired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVTWBwNxqUU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMCEMLJwnfM And the play of INA damaged. Litle stripes in RITO "Eye", also look more polished, not deep.

Thanks for your support, hope next year will be the good one. Good week-end

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#341 Bericht door Caspar » 17 nov 2018, 14:07

I prefer a minimum piston-ring gap of 0,20mm , measured in the cilinder.
0,50 is the max.

My advice : stop this nightmare , and send you complete engine to an expert for a diagnose. e.g.: Wietse , Arnold , Claus.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#342 Bericht door Sturmovik » 06 jan 2019, 19:15

Good evening guys, I hope you are doing it well, and wish you the best for 2019.

Caspar, i note that for piston rings play. Also mine were to wide. I had 0.15 and 0.10. First eror for the brand new Nikasil... Second is that the Meteor had less than 0.03 of clearance. Third may be (90% sure) an allignement default, between conrod and bore. Dont know how the bottom gasket surface could be in fault, but Arnold explained me that the increased play of Rito could come from this, and I also think like last year, coming from particles and debris of Nikasil. I will see quick, if bottom and crankseals are already dirt.

Ed.p : "Pakkingvlakken nameten/afdraaien na het nikasillen is een standaard gegeven."
LVS did me the top surface were head gasket is going, and Powerseal did the coating. They did not controled bore allignement. They explained me that when they receive a cilinder to make, nothing is supposed to happen, that will modifiy the allignement, also bore correctly perpendiculatar to botom gasket surface... My bore could also be wrong already last year, before, and powerseal maybe did a super coating on an already wrong geometry, dont know.

On my side, i was a bit fed up with Mechanic, so I let all about Kreidler away of mind since October... Sure you can understand. I wonder the time it will work reliable.
Powerseal answered me, they will hone as less they can to get to next "oversize" piston. They insure that coating is think enough for this "tweak". Also, they will put cilinder in a lathe to verify me the if gasket surface is perpendicular to bore.

Dont know yet if I will trust a Meteor with good clearance, or if I better try an other brand.

I live about 600km from Powerseal Nuenen. It is far, but not end of the world. I will go it by car, by German highway : Powerseal propose me a visit on a planned day, to see in live their work on my cilinder.

My idea was to make few more kilometers to meet Arnold De Specialist, because those october ballads have ruinded me again the crankshaft. He speaked about analyzing geometry, if conrod is alligned to bore, or if both carters need a surfacing.
I was thinking of giving him the engine, because 15kg is very expansie by post, ans also risked.

Unfortunately, he explained me today that he will not do it anymore :/ It is a bad news for me, but I can well understand this decision. Working for other takes much time, and i was doing the same when i worked in the shop few years ago :? Grateful for the genius work he made me last year (Crank modified for 12mm Rito, Left carter seal bus + clutch arm bus, clutch analysis, kickstarter modification, gear bus replacement...Etc) and all the time he took for me (We exchanged much e-mail), trust and passion, a guy to recommand !

So now, this Kreidler is again in standby, i will ask powerseal for carters control, but even with their surfacing machine, wonder how they could strap the engine on the table to do that check for me. For the brand new crankshaft that is sick again, dont know who to paid for this work.

This restauration is a failure :lol:

Hope to come again soon, with happier stories.

Thanks

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#343 Bericht door MichelVH » 06 jan 2019, 19:32

Everyone has obstacles in a restoration. Except the people with unlimited money. My hint: fix it up before the sun starts shining and the temperatures rise. Nothing worse than good weather and a broken bike...

Maybe drop the Kreidler off for 2 wheels at Dick Baan or Kees van Leeuwen, they can give all Kreidler service. Meanwhile, have vacation in the Netherlands and after 2 weeks pick up your bike again 8)

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#344 Bericht door Sturmovik » 08 jan 2019, 18:58

Your right Michel, nothing more annoying to see your Kreidler not working a whole summer. Last year it was like this, grounded after my surgery, zero motorcycle the whole year, and i only enjoyed it for a week end in end Oktober... need to make this working good this time, it is going on nerves, and I wasted more than 1000€ with those two followed engine damage... That is my worst regret... If I was knowing at the begining, that it would be usefull to let someone control the geometry, or even let them dothe Nikasil in the past... Well, "C'est comme ça.."

I will soon get to Powerseal, and I am hesitating about the new piston choice... Trying again a Meteor, but this time with correct clearance, and Goetze Rings maybe ? VHM 3x times the price ?

I dont know Dick Baan and Kees van Leuwen, I will try to contact them. What is to be done again is :

- Analysis of crank and carter geometry, to find why is the twice conrod dying again, so quick
- So probably a need to "surface" the "voetpakking" surface, if something is not right
- Probably again replacement of the conrod, i have already much clearance with the brand new 12mm Rito (For me, it is fault of the Nikasil, like I had in the past with the brand new TopRacing, what a mess ! Those abrasive particles rubbed by the piston rings went again through bottom end bearings, like if it was sand.
- Surfacing of the KTT Kop gasket surface : A brand new produckt, and i controlled on a Marble, not perfeclty flat, leaking ! I never had oil tight cilinder head. I though it will be corrected with new cilinder and head, but no way, aluminum gasket was leaking again, even with 14Nm correct order screw tightening... a mistery. Bit of liquid gasket helped me for Oktober, but thats is not satisfying me, it is a mess when you dismantle, hard to clean again, glued everything... not serious.

- Finding why the clutch is sleeping, even with 1,5 turn back and good state disks. (You can ear it on my Oktober ride...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36mDK-oUqS0&t=241s )
- Controlling if the brand new NSK have already beeing damaged by Nikasil...

I also search someone capable to lathe me something : I am not happy of the Mikuni VM20/151 mounting. Also, wonderful carburator, was working as never, that is perfect, but the fit on the spruitstuk is not perfect, and risks of further air leak. If we could have a better "bus", our a rubber boot, and I also want to make an aluminum shim to feet between spruitstuk and Mahle Cilinder to get the Carb higher, because the float bowl is so close from the right carter, that the float bowl is against the Motor Bolt... Not perfect, to close ! It felt like 1 or 2mm to get it perfect.

Last idea is to find someone with a 3D Printer to create two "half moon" plastic parts to fit over the Mikuni Kelk. With this the Twin Air will be seriously maintained. Better that my trick with clamps.

Last wishes, hope it will be reliable after this, finally. Or I risk to be disgusted from Kreidler i think.

Like your idea to visit Holland whilst brining the engine to someone. I had Arnold in mind, but will try with the other you advised me, same passion and serious work as Arnold ?

Thanks for supporting my project,

Why am i so regreting the money spent ? Because with what I wasted with those damage, I could use this money for a LVS or other preparation, to have a bit more horsepower, giving a sens to the big Rito... or even bought RVS Wheel, instead of my shit Radeally I mounted, and that are already starting to rust... Now I know what parts are good, and which are to avoid...

Florian

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#345 Bericht door MichelVH » 08 jan 2019, 23:44

Meteor with standard rings is absolutely fine!

For the headgasket, make a groove on the lathe and mount an O ring head gasket. Much better than original. But if 2 surfaces are flat you can ride without gasket, I know quite a few people without any headgasket at all.

For the slipping clutch, try thicker oil. I always had a little bit of clutch slip but now that I have thicker oil it's all gone.

If you draw a sketch of what should be lathed for the carb I might be able to help you, also I can make an aluminium raiser plate for the carb.

I would lie the Twinair and kelk aside for now, and use an original air box with twinair cone inside. It only makes a lot of noise and barely more power. But if you keep it, normal clamps are fine.

I have a hate/love relationship with my moped too, that's the oldtimer life :lol:. Don't loose interest, one day all the headaches will pay off!

I am very happy with Kees van Leeuwen service, but I think Dick Baan can help you quicker. A friend of mine had his wheels new spoked and kokusan installed and he is very happy about his service.

After all, I have spent money on shit products as well (broken Motoplat, not fitting fairings etc), we all have. But that's the price of knowledge, don't think you will buy shit Raedelli again huh ;-) ? First get it to ride, that is the most important. 10 horsepower is not that fast when the thing does not even start...

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#346 Bericht door Sturmovik » 13 jan 2019, 16:49

Hello Michel,

asked LVS for cilinder work, and I will see maybe with Dick Baan for bottom end, wait LVS before to know :)
The thing you say about machining a groove for O-Ring, I am dumb, you know what ? Because when LVS did my work, we made an exhange. I gave him my old damaged Mahle 15.43.26, and with a bit of money I obtained a brand new KTT, with corrected combustion chamber by him (Dont know what, angle maybe ?) He can make this, but I though a brand new product would be flat of course, and also leak free.

For the slipping clutch, what you hear in my video is with SAE 80 Kroon Oil. Is it not suppsed to be for Kreidlers ? Last year few guys advised me this sort of oil. Clutch was set with the three M6 screw to 1.5 turn back. I respected of course the "dead angle" in clutch hevel, also sleeping not caused by a to little clearance for example. Handlebar lever is getting back correctly.

For the Mikuni modification, I have two things in head. First is to improve the mount between the Mikuni and the original spruitstuck. I Modified the bus furnished by Black Mamba because the floatbowl was stuck against right carter, was not suitable. But with my "mod", it is a risk of air leaks... An o-ring or a better adjustement between those two parts would be great. The Mikuni worked fine, but he's to close from carters and frame... The second thing is simple, with kelk, or even without, the Twin Air Diameter is a bit bigger that the Nylon part. Guys you are seeing with TwinAir are clamping them will Rilsan, and that create wrinkles on a brand new foam. This looks like "bassteln", also handiwork. I better want an other Nylon or plastic piece who has the good diameter to receive the Twinair. I have it in head, wanna draw something in the next days to explain, but this is important, but my last problem, before need the engine to be reliable.

I have the "original" airbox (copy), and frame inside protected with Tectyl ML. After powdercoating I inspected with endoscope camera inside, to search remaining sand. See nothing, but to angry to try that. The increased sound from the TwinAir is not a problem, We have here some Harley Davidsons that are quite louder... but I could understand that the 10000rpm Kreidler Bee could annoy some citizens...

I did not made tesbank comparison, but after few years of riding bikes, I can assure you that this october ride, it was working fast. I am quite sure that the Kelk combined to the Twinair helped, because I had a richer carburation adapted to this air "addition". On all other bike there is also this "kelk", by genuine. If you look to the Mikuni, without this parts, the venturi phenomen is not helped, insted to the old Bing who has this "conical" entrance. The Florett was in higher rpm with this thing, I confirm you.

I also appreciate your point of view about aftermarket parts. I will speak again in "the end", when it will work correctly... because I have still some of them sticked in my throat... Radealli, Kreidler Parts rubbers already cracking, bad quality gaskets, bad chrom... C'est comme ça...

Thanks for time took for me, I come soon again.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#347 Bericht door Sturmovik » 13 jan 2019, 17:31

Michel, here a small video of what I thinked for a 3D Printer job, sorry for the english, I tried...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIQ_XBq ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#348 Bericht door Sturmovik » 03 feb 2019, 16:46

Hello everyone,

I try a small resume about this engine, I am still searching someone to make me the geometry job, Unfortunately Arnold is not interested anymore, i waited, he was proposing me to do this job 2 month ago :/ I had no time, I make it now... LVS I dont know yet, maybe already busy with lot of work. Does someone have the contact of Dick Baan, Kees van Leeuwen or others ? They are on the forum ?

A geometry control, a check of the Rito, and probably something to do with the brand new KTT Kop, because was still leaking, even with brand new gasket. If possible lathe machining, I also ask for a new, better, mounting bus between spruitstuk and Mikuni.

2017 : Overhaul of the engine, in rules. Revised Crank, with TopRacing Rod, FAG BO17 bearings, Kaco Seals, respected clearance of all axis, honed cylinder, with NOS Mahle Piston, to have the 0.03 clearance.
Kilometer from ZERO to 600km, and cylinder has serious worn. No more Nikasil, we are on aluminum. Nikasil Particles went through bearing. Fresh overhauled crank is sick!

Winter of 2017/2018 : Thanks to your advises, and Louis Dorr, meet in email relation with Arnold de Specialist. I gave him the sick crankshaft, the left carter (for adding additional Kickstarter seal in the same time (I did not send the right carter, was in good state…). I also let him clutch parts for analysis (Was hard to pull)
We exchanged a lot, Arnold made me wonderful job you can see here page 2.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/146487200@N07/1YAgcV

I choose a small improvement, a 12mm Rito, to have a “Marge” of reliability, maybe quite useless for my Standard Superbreitwand. Arnold also made me a new cluch Hevel bus, the lathe machining of additional seal bus…etc
In the same time, the damaged 40ZN17 Mahle with the 15.43.26 head were at LVS for analysis. LVS weld me as a genius the damaged cooling fins, surfaced top and spruitstuk gasket surface, and send to Powerseal. For the cilinderhead, we make an exchange. I let him the bad state Mahle (Combustion chamber impacts, bougie Helicoïl) and I paid for a KTT. Powerseal save the cylinder, beautiful work on both sides. I was happy…
I mounted the furnished Meteor from LVS, respecting 0.9mm minimum squish.

Before I also remounted again the refurbished bottom end. Crank from Arnold first mounted to 0.03mm with NSK 11 balls. All other axis also respecting tolerance of axial play.
Fall 2018, Oktober : I finally took time to put in the frame the overhauled engine I finished 6 month ago (Had a surgery in June 18, I let the Kreidler and mechanic far away few month)
I addition to the better dan nieuw, a brand new Mikuni VM20/151 ! Ignition set to 0.95, rich carburation with bigger jet for first start !

VDO is telling 600km, 1 year the bike is not working anymore.

After first start, I rode about 3 km near house, and feeling radial play on the flywheel !
At this time I remember Arnold telling about mounting to zero…. Damned… I took the next Saturday afternoon to open again, change “vulringen” to set the crank clearance to zero. This time should be the good one. I close again, and ride 300km, without any more flywheel problems.
Other thing after those 3km : I already speaked you about cylinder, that something was crazy in this time, polished, some mirror areas, and kop leaking again (New KTT, leaking like old Mahle). I remember someone telling me about a piston rings problem that damaged nikasil, and others telling everything is alright. I was already worry at this time. Id better stop it If I was knowing !

VDO is today telling 900km, and what I discovered after those 300km of Oktober, is that the cylinder and conrod are sick again !
What you explained me (And all my friends) is that the last possibility of this quick damage should come from a geometry problem. Remember, LVS surfaced top and spruitstuck gasket plan (My ask, were in bad shape before) and Powerseal is supposed to control the bore before chemical…

The idea is that the bore is not perpendicular to his bottom surface, Why ? This is a mystery.
When you paid a factory for a Nikasil, I swear you that is it the last thing you can imagine, that something will not be aligned… I am disgusted that I paid 200€ and they let such a problem that ruined a brand new engine. But I have no choice to pay again. Even if they find a default with this method, If think I can hope long time they take responsability
They should do that, as you said me :

Afbeelding

And maybe same on the blok “voetpakking” surface, if it has a problem.

Other thing, is that I did not gave the whole block to Arnold in the past (Winter), the right carter he never see it.
If I was knowing this possibility of problem, Id better give him the whole assembly in the past, for a check, and if need a surfacing he would see it him… Today it is too late.
For me, when you clean a blok, and control gasket surface on a marble (Or thick glass) and you find no problems, and you mount both carter with her 2 centering buses, don’t know how is it possible to have a problem with “voetpakking surface”.

Today it looks like the crank is again damaged by those Nikasil parts, and of course the cylinder in bad shape.
Gearbox and axis play I know today, after making it again and again… but the thing is that I am not skilled and equipped for replacing the Rito if really damaged (Increased play in 300km, so I think yes), balancing the both weights, and checking if bore is aligned to rod…
So I ask for everyone who’s interested for making me this geometry control, and everything else if needed. For money of course…

Two overhauled bloks, 900km… CRAZY !

See you soon, want it to work this Spring

Florian

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#349 Bericht door Frédéric » 04 feb 2019, 12:12

Hello,

Send your engine to Martin van de jagt, he will solve your problem.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#350 Bericht door wilhelmus » 04 feb 2019, 15:13

Of you can go to cncparts.nl .

Grt Wim

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