Kreidler K54/53B 1973

Verslagen van restauraties, het volledig opknappen en opnieuw opbouwen van een Kreidler - Restoring a Kreidler
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#101 Bericht door Sturmovik » 11 sep 2017, 18:53

Hello,

I mounted it with Elring Sealing Compound, but I will try with this Hylomar, maybe better thermal resist ;) Thanks

One question, I suppose frequently asked i know, but don't understand well the dutch...

I mixed an 1:25 jerrycan for my first kilometers... I know very rich for 21st century and those new synth oils, but isn't 1:50 to poor ?

I used a Castrol Power 1 Semi-Synth, not sure if a 100% will burn correctly...

Maybe try some 1:35 or 1:40. I have the bad habbit to prefer a bit more rich, maybe useless.

Have a nice week, Florian

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#102 Bericht door kursl00 » 12 sep 2017, 16:00

1:50 is okay.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#103 Bericht door Sturmovik » 13 sep 2017, 10:46

Ok Kurs I will try at 1:50.

You use semi-synth too ? I thougt that a 100% would not burn correctly when not riding each days at full rpm... Or ?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#104 Bericht door kursl00 » 14 sep 2017, 10:29

I use Full Synthethic 1:50. No problem.


Gr Leon

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#105 Bericht door Caspar » 14 sep 2017, 12:44

1:60 fully-synthetic for a 4 hp Kreidler engine.
1:100 fully-synthetic for a Spartamet cycle.
No problem

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#106 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2017, 11:51

Hello Guys, I thank you for your support. Caspar I can also ride 1:100 on the Solex ^^ Sparta the Dutch Solex ?

Some news, goods and not... This week-end I rode about 160km with my friend. We were two RS on the french country ! Was very pleasant. Mine Duitse ride faster than is Zwitserse, but he not has to downshift every small slope. Looks more torquy than mine. 5.8ps zwitserse against my old 6.25 15.43.99.

I think i reached about 90km/h !

Afbeelding

I know passed at 1:50 and dismantle the exhaust yesterday to clean it. Is'nt my new Baseball bats looking great ? ^^

The gas will remove the combustion residue. This is my plug :

Afbeelding

I couldn't resist to watch through the exhaust transfert, because I am superstitious. My RS works well, but I am not happy about this :

Afbeelding

Look like the rings are leaking, but brand new...

I only rode 600km since the end of the overhaul. For resume,

the blok is brand new : All new bearings, bus, seals. For the crankshaft, it has been overhauled : New rod (A topracing if I remember) whith new needles cage too, was balanced (We almost reached ZERO...) and I used several mount to fit the correct adjusting shims behind the two BO17. Meaning that I mounted every axle and the crankshaft whith the correct play on carters (according to the center gasket)

For the Cilinder, it is a 15.43.99. Certainly that the Nikasil is more that 40 years old, but we made a new honage, and the bore was not oval or conic. No specific wear around the transfers and the top where the rings are ending their stroke.

I bought a genuine Mahle piston, the correct "Maat" according to my Cilinder : I also mounted the piston with the 0.03mm clearance, and I made the check of both straight and L- Ring clearance before mount.

I never used "economy part" or shit bearings. And today If I put my finger in the exhaust hole I can twist a bit (Just a bit) the piston, like on this picture.

Afbeelding

I am crazy, or the needle bearings are already destroyed... Hope not but I am not happy about this little play.

I used a bit rich carburation, with good Castrol Oil. I always respect my bikes, wait for the engine to get in temperature before riding.

I adjusted the MHKZ to 0.95mm before Dead point, with a mitutoyo dial.

I think I'll soon will had to make something with my cilinder. I certainly can send it to Powerseal or Airsal for a new coating, but some cooling fins are missing (The guy of Honage broke a few ones...dumbass) so I was thinking of an aftermarket one. But with what I see on the forum (And what I try to understand), cilinders like KTT, Maxwell... have lower performance as the original Mahle, and shit piston if I understood.

Thanks

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#107 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2017, 13:51

Looks not good....



If I take my old original rod and I try to move on the axis, It can NOT. With this new (not economy) I bought on Kreidlerparts, I can twist !

Looks like they sold shit parts ! I AM DISGUSTED !

I find the same strange play on the rod I mounted recently on my 125cc Yamaha (Prox Rod) I can twist it too... So I will have to overhaul two brand new engine I just rode a bit with them...

For me we can worry about this play I have. The strange thing is that I am not feeling any radial play. The axial play is of 0.35mm. If i twist the rod, it sounds like the needle bearing are over... No ?

What I am discovering is that old parts are way better that the new ones, and I think I losted a lot of money on my RS : Like for the rubber for exemple, wo are already cracking after A YEAR only !

It is finish for the season...

FOR REMEMBER, the topic when I balanced the crank after mounting this Kreidler parts rod :

https://www.kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic ... 23&t=45068

Was this parts :

15.65.61 Drijfstangset met zilveren kooi, origineel Kreidler! uitmuntende kwaliteit nu voor.... 61,05€

> Today no more sold, wondering why... :shock: I thought at the time there was a good choice, because I saw "originel"

I see you prefer Samarin or Rito ones.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#108 Bericht door Caspar » 25 sep 2017, 18:12

Looks like there is more than 0,03mm clearance between piston and cilinder.
I have my doubts about honage of a NiCaSil coating. I think the NiCaSil layer is gone....

The rod is not the best quality available , but it should be fine for your RS.
A litle bit piston twist is not to worry about.

You mentioned the difference between the Swiss and the German RS : that is correct.
Here the same experience.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#109 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 sep 2017, 19:32

Hello Caspar,

for the Cilinder it is what I thinked too, that we are on the aluminium now. I have to take a decision. Try to keep this one, because genuine, but in bad shape, or try an aftermarket ?

What I understand in many topics of the forum is that all aftermarket are bad quality, exept ZETA maybe, but I need a "brede tap".

When I look for exemple the KTT, it looks like a Mahle, looks like was created on the same factory. What is bad ? The poort/transfert mapping ? Or just the coating ?
Or is it not reliable as a real Mahle ?

Because as I "tried" to say on my video, my 15.43.99 as many broken fin, and I am not sure they would be able to made a new coating. With the new Nicasil, can we hope to come again to the "Maat" A ? Im am on J actually... so the bore is large...

For the conrod, Id bought this one before comming to the forum, and as I said, I read "originel". At the time I wasn't knowing that other brand were proposing conrods, and was thinking there was a good one.

I think the two lubricating holes looks like ane improvement. But, we did not modified the two crankshaft weight to put the two slices for the conrod, because even balancing my crank was annoying my boss who was already busy, so he did not took the time to make the modification, and we mounted the conrod as the original, without the two shims... But I don't think it caused this dangerous play/damage. And I feel a bit of radial play yet...

Maybe the bad shape of my Nicasil caused the Piston to balance, and damaged the rod... just an idea...

The schmuck who did me the honage did not mentioned that the Nicasil was gone... as I said, the honage was perfect...

Shims are for protecting the surfaces isn't it ? Or making a role in lubrication ?

Oherwise, I don't know If i let refurbish the crank with a new rod, by a specialist (Good Adresses to know in Holland, or Germany ?) Or If I buy a complete new one... Rito ?

Im thinking to take the opportunity of this problem to let modified the Left carter for adding a seal for the kickstarter... and get the axis to a Lathe engineer.

I would not have a 20ps cilinder (Even if I wonder ^^) but which is the best combination of bearings, crank, and conrod, to keep the best reliability, and strongness if I want a small improvement of top end for exemple ?

Not to ride to 130km/h, but for exemple an improved cilinder who's reliable and a bit more powerfull, which conrod would be realistic ?

You prefer Samarin or Rito isn't it ? And what about DMF, or the EMOT parts ?

For the piston, I paid 110€ this original Mahle, I think there is better, and maybe cheaper not ? I eard about VHM.

For the differences between Swiss and German yes ^^ Mine (was) going higher rpm, more "sport", but I had the difficulty to keep the 5th gear (maybe because of the top end...) even with the 13 tooth gear. His swiss model was climbing better the roads, even with a 14t gear, but could'not reach 80, more like 70, 75km/h.

Same cilinder head, but an other cilinder, smaller ports ? More torquy. Mine 15.43.99 was more cumfortable in high rotations...

Thank you for supporting :) Florian

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#110 Bericht door Sturmovik » 27 sep 2017, 22:45

Hello guys,

I find a very trust person for the rod change/balance and the left carter modification :) Seems to be no Samarin in stock today so we may going on a Rito, with the modification to ad the two bronze shims on crank cheeks.

I wait for an answer for my cilinder. Adding the external bad shape, the problem is that we are almost 40.02mm bore today. Before coating problem, I had 40.01 (Maat J)

Can I hope to get the 39.965 Maat A again after the new Nicasil or am I wondering crazy ?

Because exept some old Mahle, I dont find much "Maat" for aftermarket pistons. A, B, C, maybe D.... but after ? I am not going to 60cc...

What do you prefer on 6.25pk ? Meteor ? I eard some Barikit too...But, i feel more reassured with a two rings (L + Recht) piston...

I eard excellent quality about VHM, but for original setup ?

If mine cilinder isn't repairable, I don't know what I will do. Said KT(T) shit, for the timmings ? But what about a Parmakit SBW ? Twice the price, better quality ?

See Soon :)

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#111 Bericht door Frédéric » 28 sep 2017, 06:39

Hello,

There are a lot good pistons even better then Mahle, (Wiseco, KS, Meteor, ...).

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#112 Bericht door Caspar » 28 sep 2017, 09:43

The KTT SBW is a Nice cilinder with a good NiCaSil coating.
The port timing and piston could be better. A little bit tame.
Buy iT from a good tuner , he Will correct the port timing and find a good piston for iT.
Parmakit is to expensive , Zeta SBW is good , but hard to find.
A Meteor piston Will do for your purpose.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#113 Bericht door Sturmovik » 28 sep 2017, 11:55

Hello Caspar, I thank you for you answers.

Because I am 90% sure that the Coating factory will not try my cilinder, I am looking aftermarket.

The tuner can adjust poorts and then it is good as the Mahle, or better ? You said good coating, meaning long life ?

And what about the Maxwell ? Is said Parmakit because ports and bore looks better, but the outside is not finished...on the cooling fins...

Frédéric, those pistons needs adjust for the ports mapping ? Wiseco dont make pistons for my Yamaha 125 and they make for Kreider / Zundapp ? :shock:

I will look, Thanks

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#114 Bericht door Frédéric » 28 sep 2017, 16:01

Hello,

You don't need to do modifications, it fits on the original rod. I always put wiseco pistons in my new cilinders, they are a bit powerfull (they are lighter).
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#115 Bericht door Sturmovik » 28 sep 2017, 16:46

I will have a Rito rod. Is your cilinder a 15.43.99 ? You mounted the wiseco with 0.03mm clearance too ?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#116 Bericht door MichelVH » 28 sep 2017, 19:08

Frédéric schreef:Hello,

You don't need to do modifications, it fits on the original rod. I always put wiseco pistons in my new cilinders, they are a bit powerfull (they are lighter).
Zetaman is back 8)

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#117 Bericht door Frédéric » 28 sep 2017, 19:18

Sturmovik schreef:I will have a Rito rod. Is your cilinder a 15.43.99 ? You mounted the wiseco with 0.03mm clearance too ?
I have only Original Mahle cilinders :wink:

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#118 Bericht door Timo_iepsma » 28 sep 2017, 19:28

Hello guys

How do you mean wiseco piston with rito?

Wich wiseco piston do you prefer on 50cc?

Size must be at 39,97 i cant find this size on a wiseco piston

Greats timo

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#119 Bericht door Eifelyeti » 28 sep 2017, 19:53

Frédéric schreef:Hello,

You don't need to do modifications, it fits on the original rod. I always put wiseco pistons in my new cilinders, they are a bit powerfull (they are lighter).
Hallo,

what for a Wiseco Piston ? 40mm?

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#120 Bericht door Frédéric » 28 sep 2017, 20:42

Eifelyeti schreef:
Frédéric schreef:Hello,

You don't need to do modifications, it fits on the original rod. I always put wiseco pistons in my new cilinders, they are a bit powerfull (they are lighter).
Hallo,

what for a Wiseco Piston ? 40mm?
40mm

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#121 Bericht door Sturmovik » 28 sep 2017, 21:56

Frédéric advise me Wiseco, where did you buy those ?

I also eard good feelings with RSP, KS, or Meteor.

I first search reliability, performance too, but It is a RS, not a Van Veen, I need a piston who had good life duration.

Standard RS have two rings, won't you loss some compression with only 1 L-Ring ?

I am trying to understand some Dutch sentences, but cannot decide which option to choose...

https://www.kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?p=498019
https://www.kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4144

What I see (not sure) : KT looks good in finishing, but has bad poort mapping causing less perf than a genuine Mahle 6.25 , Right ?
Parmakit work like the standard mahle, but has bad exterior finishing, on cooling fins for exemple,right ?

What about the quality of parma wand ?

What i see is that on the ori 6.25, there is big surface of nicasil, and that on prepared cilinder, some transfers are very close from others, and it looks very fragile !

I feel more confident whith a large bore skirt, compared to a thiner with 10 transfers ^^

I am wondering about some small improvement by a specialist, like LVS ? Why note a bit more of torque...

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#122 Bericht door Caspar » 29 sep 2017, 09:54

The KTT with a Meteor piston with 2 rings Will do.
The Parmakit wand is ok. Timing is not my favorit.
Indeed , a tuner like LVS can correct the KTT timing and fit the correct piston.
A litle bit more torque is No problem , but remember : iT is only 50cc...

KS piston is hard to get , RSP is expensive and a little bit overdone for your setup.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#123 Bericht door Sturmovik » 29 sep 2017, 10:47

Hello Caspar,

because I am 90% sure my cilinder will not be repaired (Sad, it is a 40ZN17) I will look for the KTT, and try to contact LVS first for an idea of a price.

If you advise Meteor ;) Because I want reliability first. Are them mouted with 0.03mm clearance too ?

For the tuned ports, I dont search 12pk (And i can't, only 20mm Bing, ori exhaust) but why not a bit more, would give sense to the Rito rod ;)

Best Regards, Florian

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#124 Bericht door Caspar » 29 sep 2017, 13:24

Indeed 0,03 - 0,04mm clearance for a Meteor piston.
IT is a reliable piston , No worry’s.

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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#125 Bericht door Sturmovik » 30 sep 2017, 10:31

Hello,

we took some measurement yesterday on the cilinder to have an idea.

Remember, at the finish of the restauration, after honage, it was 40.01mm wide, so fitted with a "J" Mahle Piston.

Now, after 600km at 1:25/end 1:50, we have 40.025mm at the bottom and the middle, then 40.035mm at the top, and even 40.056 at the extrem top of the bore, were pistons rings finish their movement... Very fast wear...

Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding

You can see a sort of a border, the botom is still honed, and in the middle, it has disappeared until the top, a mirror now, with lots of vertical lines > My blok has not SEIZED, but I think I just avoid a collapse soon.

You can see serious wear around the transfers too !

I would ask LVS. If we try new coating (Dont know if it is repairable) or direct aftermarket. It will depend the price and If I am gonna find pistons with this large bore now.

I have founded that my 40ZN17 those times has :

15.43.99.....40ZN17 W1.........175° 115° 148° =>und/oder 176°-116°-147°.......(Giesstück ZN17 =>Ende 80-81er Baujahre produziert mit breitem Fuß)

On the list, it looks like the best version of 15.43.99. I wonder if it will be possible, when KTT, to adapt those times (Or maybe better)
https://www.kreidler-service.de/motoren ... t4291.html

Wanna see, wait for answer.

Sad for the broked fins on my cilinder, and the inlet gasket surface is bad too, need to be rectifed (Not my fault, was already)

Have a nice week-end, Florian

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