Kreidler K54/53B 1973

Verslagen van restauraties, het volledig opknappen en opnieuw opbouwen van een Kreidler - Restoring a Kreidler
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hermanngas
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#251 Bericht door hermanngas » 20 jan 2018, 22:19

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Bijlagen
1516459618-gearbox.jpg
1516459618-gearbox.jpg (141.58 KiB) 2874 keer bekeken
1516459617-vulringen.jpg
1516459617-vulringen.jpg (126.09 KiB) 2874 keer bekeken

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#252 Bericht door Sturmovik » 21 jan 2018, 11:32

It may just be the normal noise of first gear I hear more because of no oil in gearbox ? So I am crazy and worry for nothing I think.

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LVS
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#253 Bericht door LVS » 24 jan 2018, 22:46

Sturmovik schreef:It may just be the normal noise of first gear I hear more because of no oil in gearbox ? So I am crazy and worry for nothing I think.
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the engine is now horizontal, on the you tube video.
but you have to test the engine in the normal position .

##

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#254 Bericht door Sturmovik » 27 jan 2018, 10:36

Hallo Claus, I tried to see what's going when axis are reposing on the 4 bearings (Include the clutch basket) instead of just two on the workshop, and I still ear a noise, like if a gear lock is touching an other gear. So, lets try an other new montage.



I appologize for video quality, this is an old camera and I have not a good light in the room.

And if I turn the schakelwalls in first gear position :



Is there anything wrong ? Gears looks not very centered as I can see.

Thanks

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#255 Bericht door Sturmovik » 27 jan 2018, 19:58

If someone confirm that my gearbox is well assembled, it seems that I search problems where they are NOT. Every 5 gears are passing greatly, So I suppose it is because of no 350ml oil that I ear all this noise. I inspected everything, no problems, and me axial play are set !

Time ti continue the blok !

Frédéric
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#256 Bericht door Frédéric » 28 jan 2018, 09:59

Hello,

It's well assembled, maybe you hear the noise from between the crankshaft and clutch gears?

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#257 Bericht door Sturmovik » 28 jan 2018, 12:38

Hallo Frederic, I cheked again and saw nothing wrong? Gears are passing fine, and no more this clac clac when closed.



Here is some play mesures. I finally get on the 0.02/0.03mm for Krukas (By pushing/pulling hard with hand) and 0.15 on gearbox axis. The Kick is 0.10mm and Shackelwalls/trommel about 0.10mm too. The Schakelhook is about 0.30mm. All of this in 20° room.

Now it is time for clutch, and hope this time its gonna work good !

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Caspar
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#258 Bericht door Caspar » 28 jan 2018, 15:15

I prefer at least 0,04 - 0,07mm axial clearance for the cranckshaft.
0,02 - 0,03mm Will cause noise , heat and trouble !
Rather 0,10 then 0,02mm..

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#259 Bericht door Sturmovik » 28 jan 2018, 15:44

It is advise of Arnold, Enzo, and other members. You risk also radial play with 1mm axial play. Looks like my gasket is getting thiner an thiner after some measures a carter closing because I had 0.04mm at begining.

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#260 Bericht door Sturmovik » 28 jan 2018, 17:29

So guys, my bad. I finally refoudn the play I had initially by dismantling once time again to put a new gasket (After few mouting for uitschimment every axis, this one was thiner as in origin) So we have between 0.02mm and if I force almost 4/5... I prefered the 0.02... maybe I'm just to crazy ^^

But a doubt, I tight all 10 carter screws, but for the two in ignition side, with the bronze shims, I have the feeling that I tighten way to much. It took longer time as the other to activate the torque wrench, maybe just because of the two bronze slice being crushed. You noticed same feeling ?

I continue with keerring and clutch :)

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#261 Bericht door Sturmovik » 07 feb 2018, 21:04

Hello guys,

I finally approaching end of mounting. The blok is closed, I have to finish the clutch. My primary axis of gearbox has between 0.15 and 0.20mm of play, and it is crazy that my Koppeling Basket has an half millimeter of axial play even when nut is tightened ! I had not this problem in the past. I need to find a thicker shim, mine is only 0.3mm.

Otherwise, I did not already spoke about the parts that LVS saved me, I did not took the time to write. Like Arnold, Claus made a wonderful work !
In the past I wast quite worry about my cilinder, thinking it would not be repairable... Like everyone advised, better keep on original Mahle when possible !

Powerseal made a new coating, and Claus repaired the few cooling fins that were bended and broken, restored the screw threads and made gaskets surfaces flat (Even "spruitstuck") and it is unrecognizable :clap Very happy to keep the 40ZN17 ! The cilinder was so crap before the work of LVS !

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About the Kop, mine Mahle had much issues with gasket plan and the combustion chamber was wrecked, even the bad bougie helicoïl was a bit leaking. Claus explained me that a removable chamber (with o-ring) will be a loss of money for my original setup and proposed me to exchange with a rectified KTT.

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What I need to say is that the finish look very good, and aluminum look thicker, look solid ! Claus did modify angle of combustion chamber if I understood.

Afbeelding
I just broked the bad edges of cast with a file, and it look very nice. After some degrease washing, I decided to repaint it in black, like mine old was. Lot of time, specially for polishing... but I like the end result

> I normally use a Restom paint that resist to heat, sprayed with my compressor : But with actual outside temps, I bought two Bottle of Motip Matt Black to make it inside house... I prefer brillant, but look like temp. paint only exist in matt, right ? With polished edges, it is not so bad.

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However, something is wrong with the cilinder. See on pictures, I had black spot everywhere, I think this came from Powerseal, maybe some acid splatter in the factory...

What is crazy is that after a few layers of paint, they are still visible :shock: I never saw this. I tried to paint it good, the kop look great, and the cilinder looks missed... See those paint sagging...
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Some sand was remaining between cooling fins so I cleaned each ones with old benzin. After that I deagreased them with F-Benzin before painting in hot dry room.
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For the boring, I still have few vertical black lines we can NOT feeld with nails :
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For me it may only be trace of the honing machine, and nothing serious

However, the Nicasil thickness is very generous, specially we can see that is was broken in the area of transfers, because we have yet a thick coating on those ! Is is finally gonna work fast ! Cant wait... The thickness of the treatment is also clearely visible on top end where piston rings where moving !

Thanks again to Arnold and Claus, and to the forum, very pleasant and helpful your answers :roll:

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MichelVH
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#262 Bericht door MichelVH » 07 feb 2018, 21:13

Tres intéressant a lire, continuez a écrire!

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#263 Bericht door Sturmovik » 07 feb 2018, 22:05

Merci Monsieur :wink:

Here to compare, the cilinder before job of LVS :

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The tired kop
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Some other shot of my modest work :


[url=https://flic.kr/p/EpMkoz]Afbeelding

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The Clutch basket has trace of disks. We can not feel with nails, I took a file for edges, but it is only polished, not much worn...

But my kick pedal looks very tired ! Because I have no chroming factory in area, and for cost, I decided to gum all defaults with some sand paper, sand it, and paint it Black ! I will have a better finish I think !

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Otherwise, after carter closing, It was time for keerring mount ! For Crankshaft and secondary axis is used my BO17 mounting tube. For the selector keerring, I had to care about sharp edges !

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So I used the tipp of scotch... with oil !

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It pass without force !

And this is it, without any problems :)

[url=https://flic.kr/p/22ZmaH7]Afbeelding

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Flocke
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#264 Bericht door Flocke » 07 feb 2018, 23:03

Schaut insgesamt sehr gut aus ! :D

Die schwarzen Punkte auf dem Zylinder kommen wahrscheinlich von der starken Säure, die zum Entschichten des alten Nikasils eingesetzt wird. Je stärker die Säure, desto schneller geht das, nicht so schön für den Zylinder, aber der Prozess beim Beschichter geht schneller und den freut es.

Gibt auch wohl Beschichter, die nicht so starke Säure einsetzen, so dass man nachher nicht diese Punkte hat, wäre mir lieber.

Die senkrechten "Striche" im Zylinder stammen sicherlich vom Vermessen, das ist normal und macht nichts.

Gruß

Carsten

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Caspar
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#265 Bericht door Caspar » 08 feb 2018, 08:51

8) Nice job.

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#266 Bericht door Sturmovik » 08 feb 2018, 19:09

Thank you guys,

Carsten, ich war besorgt dass diese säure weiter die zylinder anzugreifen, und habe ich gedenkt dass war die grund dass es wieder nach frisch lack sichtbar war. Heute habe ich mehrere dicke von Motip auf die zylinder, es sieht nicht guht als die kopf, aber ich denke dass es schlimmer wird wenn ich noch einmal lack einspritz... Es kann so bleiben ich werde nicht ganz wieder alles strahlen !

Also dass meint dass die werk löscht alte Nicasil nur mit chemikalen ? Ich dachte dass sie zuerst eine bore machine benutzt um die unrundheit zu berichtigen.

Wir können also guht sehen dass meien zylinder sehr müde war, besonders in die kanalen zonen, deshalb ist heute die neue Nicasil zimmlich dick herum kanal !

ich habe eine "N25" gravur, vielleicht die besichtung dick !

Für die striche also gut, ich bin beruhight, weil dass errinert mich zuerst die alte schaden von kolben wippe...

Ich habe eine frage, bin nicht sicher für übersetzung... In französich wir sagen "Rodage" :

Dass heisst, wenn du start ein ganz neue motor, du machst zuerst einigen kilometern langsam, danach nimmst du mehr und mehre umdrehung bis "ende" des periode, um die kolbenring zu "machen".

Auf meine 125 fahre ich umgefehr 500km nach ein überholung mit unterschiedliechen umdrehung, also bei "schritt", hab ich niemals eine strecke auf 11000rpm ganz nacht kolben wechsel gemacht, ich fahre besser zur 5000, dann 6000, 7000...etc, und die augen auf temperature und einigen zündkerzen kontrole !

Was denken sie ? Die debatte war so : Einigen denke dass es eine zeitverlust ist... Aber wenn ich denke auf GP, sie gehen nach uberholung vollgas.. aber es ist nicht die selbe lebensdauer...

Danke, Merci, Thanks

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Caspar
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#267 Bericht door Caspar » 08 feb 2018, 20:38

Kreidler ist (laut Prospect-) von anfang an "Vollgas-fest"
Ich bin aber der meinung das es besser ist um ein bisschen vorsicht zu sein. Wechselende drehzahlen , die höhere drehzahlen am anfang vermeiden.
Aber nicht ganz vorsicht , und auch nicht mehr öl beimischen.

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Flocke
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#268 Bericht door Flocke » 08 feb 2018, 21:58

Einfahren ist immer wieder so ein Thema ... :D

Ich sehe es wie Caspar, zusätzlich würde ich noch mit einer etwas größeren Düse anfangen und nach dem Einfahren auf "normal" runterdüsen, damit der Motor in der Einfahrphase nicht zu heiß wird.

Gruß

Carsten

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Caspar
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#269 Bericht door Caspar » 09 feb 2018, 09:44

Das ist tatsachlich sinnvoll.

Von Werk aus vollgas-fest , tja mit 1:25 gemisch kein thema :wink:

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#270 Bericht door Sturmovik » 10 feb 2018, 14:16

Hello guys, today I took some measure to wright it in my report...

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We have 39.975mm for the bore, and that is everywhere, on top, on middle, nicasil is perfect ! On last enf of bottom I have about 39.99, I think it is "cone" for the piston insertion that fault me the result.

For the piston, it is a Meteor Double Ring advised from LVS, a letter B. With the palmer I got about 39.95mm of diameter. Inside it is written MP (Meteor Pistons ?) and 842.1
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Now last thing, the rings. For the L-Ring I have only 0.10mm of play. For the Second, I have 0.15mm. I need to find an appropriate file to get more, because not enough ? I remember about 0.40mm with my Mahle

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Thanks, Nice Week-End

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Caspar
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#271 Bericht door Caspar » 10 feb 2018, 20:04

0.10 and 0.15 mm gap is perfect for your purpose.

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#272 Bericht door Sturmovik » 25 feb 2018, 13:10

Hello guys, I finally approach the end, for the blok...

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Yesterday I mounted the top end with a 0.25mm bottom paper gasket and a 0.20mm alu head gasket. With 14Nm of torque, I have about 0.9mm of Squish wich should be perfect if I base on the SQ=0.9mm Claus wrote me !

I search everywhere a torque, for the "spruitstuck" but don't find. In the past I tightened to much caused the surface to bend. Claus rectified the gasket plan, but how much Nm you put on those two M6 nuts ? 6Nm ?

Before closing the clutch, I took some last measure.

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We have about 0.18mm of play if I stop crankshaft and move clutch wheel. And that may be the clicking noise I hade always on Idle without any gas opening/charge.

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For the brand new Rito, I have a balance of 0.80 : I will write on my report, to have an idea of worn in thousands of kilometers !

My last (I hope) problem, the worn of the carburator valve... Look like someone did increased the idle screw without opening the gas throttle... Thats not me because I know that damage the valve... the screw did just rubbed the aluminum.... And as I notice, this parts does not exist anymore...

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Like this, my idle will be to low, and that may be the reason why it was always stalling in the past (But the cilinder was worn too...)

But I cannot let it like this, to worry that this damaged part goes into inlet !

See you soon

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Caspar
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#273 Bericht door Caspar » 25 feb 2018, 17:57

I tried a imitation China- Bing carburator valve , and i am satisfied.
The material is softer , but who cares .
If it is worn , i will buy a new one for less then €15,-

The original one is indeed hard to find , but still available for about €100,-
In my opinion that is quite expensive....

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marwin98
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#274 Bericht door marwin98 » 26 feb 2018, 19:07

@Casper

I bought one and was not satisfied with it. Too much clearance on the gas valve in my opinion.
My used bing has less play than the immitation :?:
I will take a look at it once and measure the clearance, then at least it is a clear answer.
100 euro for a good bing is worth it...
Search for an original new gas valve, about 50 euro.

Sturmovik
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Re: Kreidler K54/53B 1973

#275 Bericht door Sturmovik » 07 mar 2018, 19:31

Hallo, thanks for report.

100€, even 50, I think this is speculation. Unfortunately even Faak-Tillmans has no more a valve in stock. This is where I pruchased all Bing parts...

My father tried to to is best with a small dremel to cut default. Of course the missing alu will not come back, but it insure me to not get into engine ! I will try, wanna see if the idle is stable or not. An other issue is that the needle is a bit bended on the top end where clips go... Don't know how the precedent owner did this damned... Wanna try with heat in a wood wise. It not my fault, I decided to dismantle the thing because I had lot of play between the valve and his needle, wanna see why... Zackenring is in position.

Otherwise, I dont know the reason of gas valve having play, worn, because is is supposed to be full of gas and oil mixture on this area...

Whilst, I have a question, bit dumb but... I just replaced my rear tandwieldragger axis, because the old had worn thread. I compared with the new, both are exactly same. When I first mount Tandwieldrager on swingarm, the M7 screws are touching swingarm... I see that when wheel, drum plate, and pin are mounted, the whole thing become centered when I tight the wheel axis screw (So on right side)

My dumb question, is that normal ? I dont remember that tandwieldrager was touching swingarm when wheel wasn't mounted, this sound not correct.

Afbeelding

I see that the ring is not in contact with swingarm, i can move it. The new tandwieldrager axis is well mounted, by a press, to the end... no problem on this side !

Thanks in advance

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