noise from gearbox

[CLT]

Hi Kreidler Experts
A high frequency noise i comming from my gearbox when it is put in to gear. - Hear the sound in video: https://youtu.be/-lOi04VuiXs
The noise is present in all gears - 1 to 5.
The gearbox is the old type with indirect gears.

what could cause this noise? is it comming from the clutch (kupplung) since the noise is there in each gear?

Please advise if you know of a smart way to locate the noise.

Br. Claus

[Ed.P]

No worries this is the typical Kreidler sound...

[Enzo-tvdzijden]

No worries this is the typical Kreidler sound...

Right answer

[CLT]

Okay, i guess i just have to live with the noise..
I will make some trips on it the Comming season and see if the noise stays at the same level.
Enzo and Ed, thanks for commenting

[CLT]

Hello Kreidler Friends
Hereby a follow-up on the noise coming from my gearbox.
The noise did not improve, and I finally inspected the clutch.
The main clutch wheel z77 had severe axial movement >1mm and the lock washer for the nut was a little loose resulting in high radial clearance and a wear on the edges of the z77 clutch wheel and the z21 gear. Particles from the excess wear was seen in the gearbox oil.

wear_cluchwheelZ77.jpg (121.08 KiB) 1507 keer bekeken

The z77 has number 15.57.90 which I can see was mounted in the super 4. 4 gang build from 1962 to 1966.

The engine is an indirect shifted mounted with a 5 gang gearbox , I am in doubt if the 15.57.90 does fit to this engine or if it actual is the original clutch wheel and then the engine was changed from 4 gang into a 5. gang,

And now to my questions:

What is the difference between a 15.57.90 and a 15.67.91? could the high axial clearance of the clutch wheel be due to some small changes in the dimension?

I have decided to buy a new set of clutch wheel z77 and the small z21 gear. The bearing in the engine is good and the axial clearance of the clutch shaft is also good. Are any of the clutch configurations better than others from a technical perspective? Is the newer Z20 – Z79 configuration better? And will they fit into an indirect shifted housing? I guess the Z79 has a bigger outer diameter that the Z77?

Has any of you experience with the 6 plated clutch with straight wheels from BMP?
https://www.blackmambapartsshop.com/c-3 ... r-antrieb/
Is that a good clutch for casual driving with 6,25 PS setup. The price is about the same compared to original clutch wheel.

I can read that axial clearance between 0,1 and 0,2mm on the z77 clutch wheel is recommended. Is the wascher’s for minimizing clearance going on the front side? (green arrow)

Br. Claus

[Flocke]

Hello Claus,

you can not use the 15.57.90 clutch wheel, because it is made for the old 4-gear-housing.

Please see the pics, you can see the difference between the old clutch wheel (Super4) and the newer clutch wheel for the 5-gear engines.

The 5-gear box need more space in the housing, so the new housing is different, please see the last pic.

The inside wall behind the clutch wheel from the 5-speed-housing is displaced in the right direction, so the 5-gear box has a little bit more space in the housing.

If you mount the old 15.57.90 wheel in combination with the 5-gearbox and a 5-gear housing, the position of the clutch wheel will be wrong, the wheel is displaced in right direction.
I tested this, because I wanted to know the difference between the wheels.

Regards

Carsten

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[Flocke]

Here are more pics.

You can see the old 15.57.90 clutch wheel in a newer housing for a 5-gearbox.
The position of the wheel is too high.

Please compare this postion of the wheel in relation to the housing with the last pic.
The last pic shows the newer housing for the 5-gearbox with the right clutch wheel.
The wheel is mounted deeper in the housing.

So, with your wrong combination, the position of your clutch wheel is false, and the relation to the small primary wheel on the crankshaft is false as well.

I can read that axial clearance between 0,1 and 0,2mm on the z77 clutch wheel is recommended. Is the wascher’s for minimizing clearance going on the front side? (green arrow)
Br. Claus

You have to put the washer(s) on the back side of the wheel.

Regards

Carsten

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[Flocke]

Are there ring-shaped scratches from the rotating clutch in the inside of the clutch cap ?

Is the shape of the back side of your 15.57.90 clutch wheel the same as shown below ?
Because the part number 15.57.90 is on the basket not on the wheel. So it could be possible, that someone changed the parts in the past.
For instance: Someone mounted the old basket on a newer clutch wheel. So this combination should be fitting for a 5-gearbox.

Greetings

Carsten

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[CLT]

Hi Carsten,

thank you very much for a detailed answer with pictures.

It is almost like beeing a detective to find out what is the right and wrong parts

I check'ed the backside of the cluch-wheel and actually 15.67.xx is shown (see picture) so i think you are right that a 15.57.90 basket has been used on a 15.67.xx wheel.
also the gear teeth of the Z21 and the Z77 clutch wheel look's like on your picture's where it is correct mounted.

is there any different on the clutch wheel bushing? original 15.57.90 vs. 15.67.xx?.

I checked the inside of the clutch aluminium cover, and actually there is marking rings. I am i doubt how long they have been there. what does this tell us?

Br. Claus

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[Flocke]

I check'ed the backside of the cluch-wheel and actually 15.67.xx is shown (see picture) so i think you are right that a 15.57.90 basket has been used on a 15.67.xx wheel.
also the gear teeth of the Z21 and the Z77 clutch wheel look's like on your picture's where it is correct mounted.

Hello Claus,

as I count correctly, your clutch wheel has 79 teeth, and not 77. How many teeth has the small wheel, 20 or 21 ?
In combination with the 79 teeth wheel you need a small wheel with 20 teeth (see table below).
If your small wheel has 21 teeth, it could be the reason for the problems and the wearing.

I suspect, that your engine is a bad mixture of non fitting parts ...
For instance, the clutch cover is for a 3-gearbox. That is no problem, however, an indicator for a mixture of parts.

I checked the inside of the clutch aluminium cover, and actually there is marking rings. I am i doubt how long they have been there. what does this tell us?

The marking rings are an indicator, that your clutch wheel is not the right part (position of the wheel is not ok) or that the bearing is worn or that there is too much bearing clearance.
In your case, I think the position of the clutch wheel is ok, because the back side of the wheel looks ok and it is the latest one with 79 teeth.

is there any different on the clutch wheel bushing? original 15.57.90 vs. 15.67.xx?.

You can see the difference on my pics, the bushing of the 15.57.90 is longer, so the clutch wheel 15.57.90 mounted in a 5-gear-housing will be displaced (too near to the clutch cover, so you get scratches at the cover or the wheel is blocked).

Regards

Carsten


Here you can see the correct position between the two gear wheels, in this case 20/79, however, for 21/77 it must be the same relation:

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Bildquelle: Kreidlertreff Gießen

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[CLT]

Hi Carsten,

you are right, the clutch wheel has z79. No wonder it has made all this noise in combination with a z21. (no need for a horn

I think the wrong combination was mounted due to the "misleading" 15.57.90 number on the basket.

I will now see if I can find a used 15.67.91 (Z77) or maybe buy a new set of clutch wheels.

Thanks again for fast and informative information
Claus

[Caspar]

Always buy the big 77Z and the 21Z as a pair ! Not seperatly.
They belong together !
otherwise noise will apear again....

[Flocke]

It is correct, what Caspar said.

If you choose used parts, it is better to buy the two gear wheels as a pair, which worked together in the past.

You could choose the 20/79 pair from the latest version as well, it fits in your engine, too. Only the prime gear transmission ratio is a little bit shorter (see table above, 3,95 versus 3,67).
But I think, that will not be a problem, you could use a little bit longer secondary transmission ratio to compensate the shorter prime ratio (chain wheel at the outside of the engine and at the rear wheel), if you want.

The availability of the 20/79 pair should be better, I think.

Regards

Carsten

[Danco]

Has any of you experience with the 6 plated clutch with straight wheels from BMP?
https://www.blackmambapartsshop.com/c-3 ... r-antrieb/
Is that a good clutch for casual driving with 6,25 PS setup. The price is about the same compared to original clutch wheel.

Good morning,

very interesting topic.
What still interests me is the question I asked above about the new clutch baskets with straight teeth and six discs from Blackmamba-Parts.
Are these much louder? Does anyone have experience with using this clutch for occasional trips?

Many greetings
Danco

[Enzo-tvdzijden]

Hello Kreidler Friends
Hereby a follow-up on the noise coming from my gearbox.
The noise did not improve, and I finally inspected the clutch.
The main clutch wheel z77 had severe axial movement >1mm and the lock washer for the nut was a little loose resulting in high radial clearance and a wear on the edges of the z77 clutch wheel and the z21 gear. Particles from the excess wear was seen in the gearbox oil.
wear_cluchwheelZ77.jpg

The z77 has number 15.57.90 which I can see was mounted in the super 4. 4 gang build from 1962 to 1966.

The engine is an indirect shifted mounted with a 5 gang gearbox , I am in doubt if the 15.57.90 does fit to this engine or if it actual is the original clutch wheel and then the engine was changed from 4 gang into a 5. gang,

And now to my questions:

What is the difference between a 15.57.90 and a 15.67.91? could the high axial clearance of the clutch wheel be due to some small changes in the dimension?

I have decided to buy a new set of clutch wheel z77 and the small z21 gear. The bearing in the engine is good and the axial clearance of the clutch shaft is also good. Are any of the clutch configurations better than others from a technical perspective? Is the newer Z20 – Z79 configuration better? And will they fit into an indirect shifted housing? I guess the Z79 has a bigger outer diameter that the Z77?

Has any of you experience with the 6 plated clutch with straight wheels from BMP?
https://www.blackmambapartsshop.com/c-3 ... r-antrieb/
Is that a good clutch for casual driving with 6,25 PS setup. The price is about the same compared to original clutch wheel.

I can read that axial clearance between 0,1 and 0,2mm on the z77 clutch wheel is recommended. Is the wascher’s for minimizing clearance going on the front side? (green arrow)

Br. Claus

you installed a close bearing. It must be an open C3

especially the straight-toothed clutch is more noise

[kreidler844]

Hello Kreidler Friends
Hereby a follow-up on the noise coming from my gearbox.
The noise did not improve, and I finally inspected the clutch.
The main clutch wheel z77 had severe axial movement >1mm and the lock washer for the nut was a little loose resulting in high radial clearance and a wear on the edges of the z77 clutch wheel and the z21 gear. Particles from the excess wear was seen in the gearbox oil.
wear_cluchwheelZ77.jpg

The z77 has number 15.57.90 which I can see was mounted in the super 4. 4 gang build from 1962 to 1966.

The engine is an indirect shifted mounted with a 5 gang gearbox , I am in doubt if the 15.57.90 does fit to this engine or if it actual is the original clutch wheel and then the engine was changed from 4 gang into a 5. gang,

And now to my questions:

What is the difference between a 15.57.90 and a 15.67.91? could the high axial clearance of the clutch wheel be due to some small changes in the dimension?

I have decided to buy a new set of clutch wheel z77 and the small z21 gear. The bearing in the engine is good and the axial clearance of the clutch shaft is also good. Are any of the clutch configurations better than others from a technical perspective? Is the newer Z20 – Z79 configuration better? And will they fit into an indirect shifted housing? I guess the Z79 has a bigger outer diameter that the Z77?

Has any of you experience with the 6 plated clutch with straight wheels from BMP?
https://www.blackmambapartsshop.com/c-3 ... r-antrieb/
Is that a good clutch for casual driving with 6,25 PS setup. The price is about the same compared to original clutch wheel.

I can read that axial clearance between 0,1 and 0,2mm on the z77 clutch wheel is recommended. Is the wascher’s for minimizing clearance going on the front side? (green arrow)

Br. Claus

you installed a close bearing. It must be an open C3

especially the straight-toothed clutch is more noise

op die plek beter geen C3, wordt ie ook stiller van.

[Enzo-tvdzijden]

Zeker geen dichte Wietse. Dat was mijn boodschap.

Enzo

[kreidler844]

Zeker geen dichte Wietse. Dat was mijn boodschap.

Enzo

klopt, gaat de smering niet goed.

[vlatro]

Idd. Dichting er even uit halen met een kleine schroevendraaier

[Enzo-tvdzijden]

Idd. Dichting er even uit halen met een kleine schroevendraaier

en de andere kant dan ?

[vlatro]

Als er 1 plaatje uit is krijgt de lager voldoende smering. Dat gezegd zijnde blijft het uiteraard beter gewoon de juiste te plaatsen. Maar dan moet het blok open.

Vraag is natuurlijk, als deze lager fout is, waarom zouden de andere lagers dan wel juist zijn....